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Have you checked for codes? The engine problem sounds more like a AFM/TPS/coolant temp sender type deal to me?
1993 Specific year concerns
- Thread starter toyotaspeed90
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #42
thanks for the info Tools R Us!
Pulled the plugs and did a compression test. Admittedly my tester leaks so I have to perform the test, jump out and catch where the needle is moving downward. To do the test:
Pull all of the plugs at once
Remove the EFI fuse (this ensure no fuel is sprayed and no spark is delivered)
Run the cylinders 1 at a time with a compression tester in that plug
To run the cylinder - turn the key to "start" and hold for several cycles. Important - HOLD the throttle WIDE OPEN
Check the numbers, write them down
In my case - since my tester is super awesome/cheap/old and leaks, I had to guesstimate. However I did see no cylinders below 165 (while the needle was moving) and none above 180 (180 and 150 happen to be large number indicators on the dial and was where I was gauging the moving needle from). 10% would be about 15-18 psi, and there wasn't that much variance between any of the cylinders.
There's no oil in the coolant, no coolant in the oil. Oil smells a bit old/burned, but not like gas and not smeary as if coolant was in the system.
As for the plugs, they tell the same story... maybe a bit worn but nothing stands out from one to the other. If coolant is getting into the cylinder and that cylinder is, normally, still able to run - you will actually have a nice shiny/steam cleaned plug and it will look vastly different from the others:
I might consider running a hydrocarbon test in the radiator but the plugs/compression are telling a story and there's no overheating, nor loss/overpressurization of the cooling system, so I'll probably forego that.
Pulled the plugs and did a compression test. Admittedly my tester leaks so I have to perform the test, jump out and catch where the needle is moving downward. To do the test:
Pull all of the plugs at once
Remove the EFI fuse (this ensure no fuel is sprayed and no spark is delivered)
Run the cylinders 1 at a time with a compression tester in that plug
To run the cylinder - turn the key to "start" and hold for several cycles. Important - HOLD the throttle WIDE OPEN
Check the numbers, write them down
In my case - since my tester is super awesome/cheap/old and leaks, I had to guesstimate. However I did see no cylinders below 165 (while the needle was moving) and none above 180 (180 and 150 happen to be large number indicators on the dial and was where I was gauging the moving needle from). 10% would be about 15-18 psi, and there wasn't that much variance between any of the cylinders.
There's no oil in the coolant, no coolant in the oil. Oil smells a bit old/burned, but not like gas and not smeary as if coolant was in the system.
As for the plugs, they tell the same story... maybe a bit worn but nothing stands out from one to the other. If coolant is getting into the cylinder and that cylinder is, normally, still able to run - you will actually have a nice shiny/steam cleaned plug and it will look vastly different from the others:
I might consider running a hydrocarbon test in the radiator but the plugs/compression are telling a story and there's no overheating, nor loss/overpressurization of the cooling system, so I'll probably forego that.
- Thread starter
- #43
I have not... I pulled the TPS to see how it would react, and I actually didn't get a CEL.... I'm guessing (since there are also some AT indicator lights out) that the CEL bulb is out.... but when I go to time it I will check to see if there are any codes flashing.
Unless I'm wrong about this specific model/ecu... OBD1 wouldn't store the codes and would be transparent if the CEL is on.... then jumpering E1 and T (or whichever variant for this rig... E1 & T1?) would flash the code instead of just having the light 'on'.
- Thread starter
- #44
Mind you - what I'm about to add doesn't mean the problem is resolved for sure - I know, especially when a coil is bad/going bad (especially when an epoxy coil has moisture in it) the problems can be very erratic (and a new coil is on the way)....
Threw the truck back together and it's running significantly better. Almost night and day. Startup was faster, idle is smooth, off idle throttle is much more responsive, took a steep hill in the neighborhood in 4l and just crawled off idle up it just fine (no shaking, was slow going but good).
I inspected the wires more closely - there is 1 wire where the end rubber boot is almost hardened like plastic and has white all over it - possibly jumping spark out of it (no melting, though, so possibly not).
The tune up parts could also be helping hide if the coil is in fact shot.
On another note - Toyota dealerships continually surprise me and not in the good way. Most parts stores (I did work in a couple for around 3 years and how they treat customers now is ridiculous) aren't that much better. I was in my work clothes (button up shirt, striped slacks, black shoes, had my glasses on) and I always get judged as if I know nothing when in work attire...
Generally, this is how the discussion at Toyota went:
me: "I need a transmission filter kit for a 1993 Land Cruiser"
him: "Probably won't have it, let me look"
me: "It's a 93 model year, 94 CA emission, but has the A442F"
him: "thought you said 1992" (pause) "Ok we don't have it... let me look for a 1993 now. We don't replace those filters here so we don't stock them"
me (blank stare, a little)
him: "They're a lifetime filter, supposed to last the life of the vehicle. We just drain and refill here."
me: "Well it has 290,000 miles, it's time to replace"
him: "On new cars we don't even do drain and refills."
This is why, sometimes, it blows my mind that people think a dealership is that much better. It comes down to the people who are actually working on your vehicle - that may be some random guy working out of his garage because he can't afford a shop but knows his stuff.... or it could be the certified tech at a dealership sure...
I'll say - Autozone wasn't much better, they argued as to which transmission was supposed to be in the truck...
Threw the truck back together and it's running significantly better. Almost night and day. Startup was faster, idle is smooth, off idle throttle is much more responsive, took a steep hill in the neighborhood in 4l and just crawled off idle up it just fine (no shaking, was slow going but good).
I inspected the wires more closely - there is 1 wire where the end rubber boot is almost hardened like plastic and has white all over it - possibly jumping spark out of it (no melting, though, so possibly not).
The tune up parts could also be helping hide if the coil is in fact shot.
On another note - Toyota dealerships continually surprise me and not in the good way. Most parts stores (I did work in a couple for around 3 years and how they treat customers now is ridiculous) aren't that much better. I was in my work clothes (button up shirt, striped slacks, black shoes, had my glasses on) and I always get judged as if I know nothing when in work attire...
Generally, this is how the discussion at Toyota went:
me: "I need a transmission filter kit for a 1993 Land Cruiser"
him: "Probably won't have it, let me look"
me: "It's a 93 model year, 94 CA emission, but has the A442F"
him: "thought you said 1992" (pause) "Ok we don't have it... let me look for a 1993 now. We don't replace those filters here so we don't stock them"
me (blank stare, a little)
him: "They're a lifetime filter, supposed to last the life of the vehicle. We just drain and refill here."
me: "Well it has 290,000 miles, it's time to replace"
him: "On new cars we don't even do drain and refills."
This is why, sometimes, it blows my mind that people think a dealership is that much better. It comes down to the people who are actually working on your vehicle - that may be some random guy working out of his garage because he can't afford a shop but knows his stuff.... or it could be the certified tech at a dealership sure...
I'll say - Autozone wasn't much better, they argued as to which transmission was supposed to be in the truck...
I hear ya, but in these, the tranny filters really are lifetime. Clean and reinstall. Beno would tell you the same thing.
- Thread starter
- #46
Well the weather changed and the truck had the idle issue again. Only thing I did was pull the dash apart to get the gauges out to check the bulbs. I am 100% convinced it's electrical. Hoping the coil and that will be arriving soon.
The MR2 reverse switch has arrived and will report back when I get home and get my hands on it.
As for pulling the gauges, I found this:
Which really pisses me off. A CEL being on wouldn't have changed my perception of getting it much. But this is intentional 'hiding' that there is an unresolved CEL. The bulb/holder to the right was a blank/dead spot - since there are electrical connections only someone who knows that moving the bulb would have no I'll effect would have done that.
At least now I can pull the codes and see what I'm dealing with.
On another note for the gauges - the trans selector has a separate removable block... the PWR bulb was out but there was one in there, which would illuminate "MANU". I assume this means 'manual'... guessing this is just a common part across multiple vehicles and has no use in the FZJ80?
The MR2 reverse switch has arrived and will report back when I get home and get my hands on it.
As for pulling the gauges, I found this:
Which really pisses me off. A CEL being on wouldn't have changed my perception of getting it much. But this is intentional 'hiding' that there is an unresolved CEL. The bulb/holder to the right was a blank/dead spot - since there are electrical connections only someone who knows that moving the bulb would have no I'll effect would have done that.
At least now I can pull the codes and see what I'm dealing with.
On another note for the gauges - the trans selector has a separate removable block... the PWR bulb was out but there was one in there, which would illuminate "MANU". I assume this means 'manual'... guessing this is just a common part across multiple vehicles and has no use in the FZJ80?
The transmission filter is a quasi-permanent metal screen that does not require replacement under normal usage.
What's normal usage?
My tranny is currently being rebuilt and the shop doing the work says not changing the filter/screen is a big contributing factor to its failure.
I'm going to stop by Monday to get more details as to what failed, but they are recommending filter/screen replacement 12-15k miles.
Is this bs?
Just about anything short of beating the s*** out of it, running it out of fluid or smashing the oil pan on a big old rock...
- Thread starter
- #50
With my rig having 290k miles, unknown maintenance/abuse, plus living 25min to 'town', plus the filter kit being a day or 2 out... I'd rather have it on hand and just replace it for $25.
I pulled the codes.... mind you (as I said above as a test) I removed the TPS connector, and out of habit I started the truck after swapping ignition parts, but with putting the afm back in (ran for all of 1/2 a second)... I had codes
14
24
25
26
31
41
Which are AFM, TPS, and a IGF ignition failure. This sort of confirms my suspicion of the coil. Sort of sitting up the creel until it arrives.
On another note.... bulb size 74 is listed for the gauges - which that is the wrong size; the AT trans selector bulbs are very specialized; the PWR button displayed after clearing codes and starting the vehicle back up. At that moment (weather was ok but not overly warm or a drastic change) the vehicle ran great and no code(s) popped up. May run it a couple different times tomorrow and see.
The MR2 reverse switch looks the same, but also looks a little bigger from what my memory recalls, will need to pull the center diff/4l switch to check....
I pulled the codes.... mind you (as I said above as a test) I removed the TPS connector, and out of habit I started the truck after swapping ignition parts, but with putting the afm back in (ran for all of 1/2 a second)... I had codes
14
24
25
26
31
41
Which are AFM, TPS, and a IGF ignition failure. This sort of confirms my suspicion of the coil. Sort of sitting up the creel until it arrives.
On another note.... bulb size 74 is listed for the gauges - which that is the wrong size; the AT trans selector bulbs are very specialized; the PWR button displayed after clearing codes and starting the vehicle back up. At that moment (weather was ok but not overly warm or a drastic change) the vehicle ran great and no code(s) popped up. May run it a couple different times tomorrow and see.
The MR2 reverse switch looks the same, but also looks a little bigger from what my memory recalls, will need to pull the center diff/4l switch to check....
I thought someone already bought it up but one '93 specific issue is a transmission control unit (TCU) failure where you get codes 83, 84, and 85 at the same time. The fix is, get a TCU from a '94.
The SFI section of the FSM has suggestions to diagnose the cause of all of the codes.
for 14 it suggests igniter & ignition coil circuit, igniter & ignition coil, starter signal circuit, or ECM.
24 is open or short in the IAT sensor circuit.
25 and 26 are lean and rich condition respectively, but this is a deceptive description. If careful attention is paid to the FSM, both of these codes can be caused by a rough idle.
I'm referring to case (2) there. In my experience, more often than not, these have no connection to an actual lean or rich condition, because there are so many things which can cause a rough idle.
Check your engine grounds anyway, but a vacuum leak or an intake air leak after the VAF is more common.
31 is VAF signal - Having both 24 and 31 suggests to me that the VAF has been effed with. Or is just broke.
A lot of people make the mistake of removing the screws on either side of the harness connector on the VAF to remove the cable. If they then pull on the cable, they tear a very fragile flexible circuit inside the VAF. This CAN be fixed if you have experience with delicate electronic repairs, and have say some kapton tape and a circuitwriter pen, but for most people it is more realistic to replace the entire unit. it has to come from 93 or 94 model year.
41 of course is open or short in the TPS or it's circuit.
You seem to be on the right track. Continue with your tuneup work, make sure your air intake hose is not cracked and is sealed well on both ends.
Since some of these codes can be caused by an open circuit, which can be caused by a connector being loose or dirty, it may be a good idea to gently (and correctly!) un-plug those connectors, squirt in some contact cleaner, and re-connect them. I swear by DeOx-it but any good cleaner should work.
You should inspect and clean the o2 sensor harnesses as well. One of them is in the front passenger wheel well and is exposed to tire spray, so it can get very dirty. The other one is further under the vehicle.
I think i mentioned this already but there was an 02 sensor recall for many (all?) 93/94 cruisers. Go here and plug in the vin to see if the dealer owes you free sensors w/ installation: Lookup Safety Recalls & Service Campaigns by VIN
This being OBD1, we don't know how long those codes have been stored. If you pull the EFI relay in the box under the hood for several seconds (just wait a minute or two) that will clear the codes, and you can see what comes back. 25-26 will keep coming back until the rough idle is resolved.
Also, be aware that after you clear the codes, the engine controller will run open-loop ("safe" default running condition) for several drive cycles before it learns the sensors and goes closed-loop again. You are unlikely to pass a state emissions test when in open-loop, fwiw.
In practice you need somewhere between 8 and 12 drive cycles before it goes closed-loop. And they don't count until the engine is up to normal operating temperature. So after clearing codes, go drive somewhere, a mile or so, or whatever it takes to get to temperature.
After that, each cycle can be as simple as putting in the key, starting it up, driving for a few seconds, shutting it off, taking out the key. You will get funny looks if you do this long enough in an empty parking lot.
The SFI section of the FSM has suggestions to diagnose the cause of all of the codes.
for 14 it suggests igniter & ignition coil circuit, igniter & ignition coil, starter signal circuit, or ECM.
24 is open or short in the IAT sensor circuit.
25 and 26 are lean and rich condition respectively, but this is a deceptive description. If careful attention is paid to the FSM, both of these codes can be caused by a rough idle.
I'm referring to case (2) there. In my experience, more often than not, these have no connection to an actual lean or rich condition, because there are so many things which can cause a rough idle.
Check your engine grounds anyway, but a vacuum leak or an intake air leak after the VAF is more common.
31 is VAF signal - Having both 24 and 31 suggests to me that the VAF has been effed with. Or is just broke.
A lot of people make the mistake of removing the screws on either side of the harness connector on the VAF to remove the cable. If they then pull on the cable, they tear a very fragile flexible circuit inside the VAF. This CAN be fixed if you have experience with delicate electronic repairs, and have say some kapton tape and a circuitwriter pen, but for most people it is more realistic to replace the entire unit. it has to come from 93 or 94 model year.
41 of course is open or short in the TPS or it's circuit.
You seem to be on the right track. Continue with your tuneup work, make sure your air intake hose is not cracked and is sealed well on both ends.
Since some of these codes can be caused by an open circuit, which can be caused by a connector being loose or dirty, it may be a good idea to gently (and correctly!) un-plug those connectors, squirt in some contact cleaner, and re-connect them. I swear by DeOx-it but any good cleaner should work.
You should inspect and clean the o2 sensor harnesses as well. One of them is in the front passenger wheel well and is exposed to tire spray, so it can get very dirty. The other one is further under the vehicle.
I think i mentioned this already but there was an 02 sensor recall for many (all?) 93/94 cruisers. Go here and plug in the vin to see if the dealer owes you free sensors w/ installation: Lookup Safety Recalls & Service Campaigns by VIN
This being OBD1, we don't know how long those codes have been stored. If you pull the EFI relay in the box under the hood for several seconds (just wait a minute or two) that will clear the codes, and you can see what comes back. 25-26 will keep coming back until the rough idle is resolved.
Also, be aware that after you clear the codes, the engine controller will run open-loop ("safe" default running condition) for several drive cycles before it learns the sensors and goes closed-loop again. You are unlikely to pass a state emissions test when in open-loop, fwiw.
In practice you need somewhere between 8 and 12 drive cycles before it goes closed-loop. And they don't count until the engine is up to normal operating temperature. So after clearing codes, go drive somewhere, a mile or so, or whatever it takes to get to temperature.
After that, each cycle can be as simple as putting in the key, starting it up, driving for a few seconds, shutting it off, taking out the key. You will get funny looks if you do this long enough in an empty parking lot.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #52
Typing on my phone doesn't always convey what I meant....
After installing the plugs/wires I did NOT have the AFM installed nor plugged in, so I expected there to be every AFM (including IAT since it's incorporated) to kick.
Today's weather has been a little colder and damp/rainy, I drove it about 50 miles without a hiccup/ CEL. From some reading I did yesterday, the IGF is a signal that the ignitor sends to the ecu saying that the coil fired... my guess is that since the ignitor supplies the 12v and negative signal leads, that the ignitor will read when that the coil circuit isn't complete - causing a misfire... which then causes IGF to fail a signal. At least that's the hope.
The new coil will tell me if my thinking is right.
As far as new power/ground leads, that's on the agenda but just hasn't been done yet.
After installing the plugs/wires I did NOT have the AFM installed nor plugged in, so I expected there to be every AFM (including IAT since it's incorporated) to kick.
Today's weather has been a little colder and damp/rainy, I drove it about 50 miles without a hiccup/ CEL. From some reading I did yesterday, the IGF is a signal that the ignitor sends to the ecu saying that the coil fired... my guess is that since the ignitor supplies the 12v and negative signal leads, that the ignitor will read when that the coil circuit isn't complete - causing a misfire... which then causes IGF to fail a signal. At least that's the hope.
The new coil will tell me if my thinking is right.
As far as new power/ground leads, that's on the agenda but just hasn't been done yet.
Understood. Keep us updated.
Early EFI systems are temperamental. But once you make them happy, they will make you happy.
Early EFI systems are temperamental. But once you make them happy, they will make you happy.
@ Toyotaspeed90 - I'm just down the road in Mount Vernon, if you want to catch up at some point, maybe I can help if you need hands on type help.
Not saying I'm some expert, but I've had my 80 for awhile & spent a little time underhood, so used to the normal sounds a 1FZ should make, and I know some of the ones it shouldn't.
Just an offer.
Not saying I'm some expert, but I've had my 80 for awhile & spent a little time underhood, so used to the normal sounds a 1FZ should make, and I know some of the ones it shouldn't.
Just an offer.
- Thread starter
- #56
Sounds good... my work office is in Burlington... which I rarely go to... but I am actually in Glenhaven Lakes ( off Alger). I have a lot of tools and other Toyota knowledge (currently have an AE95 and sort of an FJ40).
I just installed the new coil... haven't seen this type of throttle response since I bought it. I haven't seen a CEL since resetting a few days ago as well.
The new switch/sensor install - haven't seen the center lock up that fast yet. Works flawlessly!
- Thread starter
- #58
Oh goody, out of the blue while driving the ECU just threw code 26....
- Thread starter
- #59
Well - nothing else is going on other than a rough idle and low power down low in the rpm range. I'm thinking it might be an AFM on the way out.... I don't have any spares lying around, and this is sometimes why I love the internet.
My AE95 had a broken headlight and missing passenger light. These lights are very hard to find.... using an online junkyard search I was able to find a headlight and corner lamp for it for $80 shipped. Mind you just one corner lamp on ebay will normally sell for $50-100, headlights significantly more.
Found an AFM, tested, with a 90 day warranty from a 93 Cruiser - called and verified it was an AFM from a cruiser, and they're shipping it out tomorrow. $35 plus shipping.
My AE95 had a broken headlight and missing passenger light. These lights are very hard to find.... using an online junkyard search I was able to find a headlight and corner lamp for it for $80 shipped. Mind you just one corner lamp on ebay will normally sell for $50-100, headlights significantly more.
Found an AFM, tested, with a 90 day warranty from a 93 Cruiser - called and verified it was an AFM from a cruiser, and they're shipping it out tomorrow. $35 plus shipping.
- Thread starter
- #60
Here are some tests I performed to see if I could find further problem(s):
Let the vehicle run/idle in P and use a pair of pliers on each vacuum line (separately) to determine if any change takes place. This can be hit or miss (especially if you clamp it down and there's an unseen hole/crack between where you clamped and the engine). No changes took place.
Much more careful/deliberate carb cleaner spray over specific hoses and the TB/Plenum gaskets - no leaks.
While running, pulled the top of the air cleaner off and used my hands to reduce airflow as much as possible - as expected RPM's dropped and I could feel pressure of the engine wanting to pull air. There were no other audible changes (that would indicate a vacuum leak elsewhere) and when released, rpm's did climb up then back down.
I've been reading that O2's could be a problem - but I can't imagine they would (for any reason) cause a rough idle. My guess/hope is that the AFM reading incorrectly, causing the rough idle, and throwing a rich code. The other things I think it could be:
Clogged cats
Dirty or some issue with the Throttle Body
Something has failed with the IAC valve
Let the vehicle run/idle in P and use a pair of pliers on each vacuum line (separately) to determine if any change takes place. This can be hit or miss (especially if you clamp it down and there's an unseen hole/crack between where you clamped and the engine). No changes took place.
Much more careful/deliberate carb cleaner spray over specific hoses and the TB/Plenum gaskets - no leaks.
While running, pulled the top of the air cleaner off and used my hands to reduce airflow as much as possible - as expected RPM's dropped and I could feel pressure of the engine wanting to pull air. There were no other audible changes (that would indicate a vacuum leak elsewhere) and when released, rpm's did climb up then back down.
I've been reading that O2's could be a problem - but I can't imagine they would (for any reason) cause a rough idle. My guess/hope is that the AFM reading incorrectly, causing the rough idle, and throwing a rich code. The other things I think it could be:
Clogged cats
Dirty or some issue with the Throttle Body
Something has failed with the IAC valve