1977 Diesel 'B' High Fuel pressure pump question. (1 Viewer)

[logansrun88]

Hello,

I’ve been reading through some posts and am still in search of some assistance. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


I have a 1977 FJ 40, diesel motor (I believe it is the B model). I purchased this a couple years ago in Honduras and brought it back to the States with me. It was purchased initially in Honduras, back in 77.

I have it with a mechanic now and he tells me I need to replace the high pressure fuel pump. He explained that when he tested the motor and fuel pump there was no fuel coming from the injectors. With that symptom, does that sound like I need to replace the high pressure pump?

I’ve been searching for one online and am coming up empty. I called a couple places and everyone tells me to come here and ask what I should do / where I should go. Once again, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Is rebuilding it something I should consider? Anyone out there specialize in rebuilding these / selling new or refurbished ones?


Thank you!!!


Logan

 

[duncanrm]

I'd be checking the EDIC, Lift Pump and confirming delivery of fuel to the Injector Pump before rushing to an Injector Pump rebuild.. is he a diesel specialist?

Also.. if you post a photo of the engine.. we can confirm what it is..

 

[lostmarbles]

.....
I have a 1977 FJ 40, diesel motor (I believe it is the B model). ......I have it with a mechanic now and he tells me I need to replace the high pressure fuel pump. He explained that when he tested the motor and fuel pump there was no fuel coming from the injectors. With that symptom, does that sound like I need to replace the high pressure pump?...
Logan

Hi there Logan.

By "replace high pressure fuel pump" I presume you mean ""replace the injector pump".

Hell . That's a drastic step!

Those pumps generally last the life of the engine (with nothing needing doing to them unless they've been fed contaminated fuel or been left open to the weather).

"Failure to deliver fuel" is insufficient reason to say the injector pump is knackered because some simple things can cause this problem (such as failure to bleed out air that may be trapped inside the injector pump).

So my first question would be ... Is this mechanic properly qualified and do they really know what they're doing?

 

[logansrun88]

Duncanrm and Lostmarbles,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Lostmarbles you are correct I am talking about the injector pump.

The mechanic is a diesel mechanic, however, he's not a Lancruiser expert. I was amazed how difficult it was to find someone who would work on this. Sounds like it would be a good idea to have someone else check it out.

I went to the mechanic with the information provided from you guys and he just told me the following, "There are no electronics on this pump assy nor any electrical wires going to it. the throttle arm is at the rest position, the diaphragm is not leaking. opening the bleeder screw on the top of the fuel filter assy has fuel coming out of it while priming system. while cranking engine and bleeding injectors, only a drop comes out of the rear injector.It does run for a few seconds after spraying throttle body with starting fluid."

Do his comments bring to light any additional questions?

Question- What is the best way to ensure that the system is bled properly / and that air in the system is not the problem?

Question- He mentioned that there are no electrical wires. Does that mean there is no EDIC on this (B model motor I think)?

I have a video clip of the motor running at idle if that might help identify.

Thank you again everyone,

Logan

 

[lostmarbles]

Duncanrm and Lostmarbles,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Lostmarbles you are correct I am talking about the injector pump.

The mechanic is a diesel mechanic, however, he's not a Lancruiser expert. I was amazed how difficult it was to find someone who would work on this. Sounds like it would be a good idea to have someone else check it out.

I went to the mechanic with the information provided from you guys and he just told me the following, "There are no electronics on this pump assy nor any electrical wires going to it. the throttle arm is at the rest position, the diaphragm is not leaking. opening the bleeder screw on the top of the fuel filter assy has fuel coming out of it while priming system. while cranking engine and bleeding injectors, only a drop comes out of the rear injector.It does run for a few seconds after spraying throttle body with starting fluid."

Do his comments bring to light any additional questions?

Question- What is the best way to ensure that the system is bled properly / and that air in the system is not the problem?

Question- He mentioned that there are no electrical wires. Does that mean there is no EDIC on this (B model motor I think)?

I have a video clip of the motor running at idle if that might help identify.

Thank you again everyone,

Logan

Hi there Logan..

If he's a diesel mechanic then he should certainly know what he's doing.

I suspect he's talking about "no electronics and no wires" because he's familiar with modern diesels with their fuel-cut-solenoids and electronic-injection but doesn't really know anything about the old Toyota EDIC system.

Here is the EDIC system on my BJ40...

Firstly with the arm in the "engine run" position:

Note that if you have an EDIC system there and the arm is in this position (pushed fully forward as shown below), then your engine won't run because this is the "fuel-cut-off" or "stop" position for the little lever on the IP:

So the position of the little lever on the IP is very important on my BJ40.

(There's another position too... When my ignition key is in the "start/crank position" the EDIC motor will pull the lever right back towards the firewall to "overfuel" for easy starting.

I think we really need some pics of your engine to see exactly what you've got. (So posting that video sounds like a good idea.)

It seems surprising to me for a diesel mechanic to say nonchalantly that you need a new IP when he must surely know that they are the single most important item on the engine and as such are worth a small fortune to buy new (if you could even do so and may be very difficult to obtain second-hand as well).

The IP on a 2B or 3B engine may look similar ... but it will be set differently and have other differences too (due to being produced much later than 1977).

Has there been water inside the IP? When was the engine last running?



PS. It seems like your mechanic is indeed familiar with bleeding the air out of the fuel system (and after doing so has probably has cranked the engine with the nuts loose on the tops of all injectors and found only the rear injector line was discharging diesel ... albeit just a dribble). So I'm now rightly or wrongly assuming that air's not the issue. And thus I'm moving on to wondering whether that little lever on your IP is being put in the correct position for fuel delivery..

 

[logansrun88]

Lostmarbles,

Once again, thank you very much for the time you've taken to provide pictures and detailed information. It really is appreciated. I found a video clip I took of the motor at idle. I wasn't able to upload it so I put it on youtube. Here is the link- . That clip was taken about a year ago when the BJ was still in Honduras. My intent at the time was just to have a basic video of it running so I didn't focus in on specific areas for too long, however, I think you should be able to identify it.

My buddy received the BJ in the States when I shipped it. He was the last one to drive it and will post after me his experience up until it stopped running. To my knowledge no water was ever introduced to the system.

I am not completely satisfied that the system was completely bled of air. Do these BJs require any special steps in the bleeding process?

Thank you again,

Logan

 

[Alex Jones]

Hey Lost Marbles,

I'm Logan's friend that received the BJ here in GA last November. I've been following this thread and wanted to give you my input regarding the experience that I had driving it till it would not run anymore. As mentioned the BJ was received in Nov 2014. after a few setbacks I finally got it to where I was able to drive it around the neighborhood. I then drove it to a nearby tire shop to put some newer tires on it. That was about a ten mile round trip. I then drove it to work the following week which is about 5 miles away. On my way back as the road started to incline the BJ felt like it was in first gear and eventually died on me in the middle of the road. I managed to start it and barely made it home. Ever since then I have experienced the same issue anytime I try going up even the lightest incline it will die. Eventually it got to where I could not even drive it without dying, not even a few feet. The last time I attempted to drive it was probably 1 1/2 to 2 months ago until I finally had it towed to the mechanic that is currently trying to work on it. Total miles driven was probably 25-35 miles total. When it ran it drove well. However, ever since the last time I attempted to drive it I've had no luck. Again I wanted you to have my input regarding my experience driving the BJ. Please let me know if this help. Thanks for all of your input so far.

 

[elkaholic]

If you can get the truck down to Rob Smith in Thomasville, GA, I am sure he could sort this out in no time. He is listed in the 70 series section in the "70 series shop" thread ....

 

[lostmarbles]

... I found a video clip I took of the motor at idle.....That clip was taken about a year ago when the BJ was still in Honduras. My intent at the time was just to have a basic video of it running so I didn't focus in on specific areas for too long, however, I think you should be able to identify it...

Thanks Logan.

Nice to hear it running. (I suspect the brief interruptions in the idle that I hear are just the result of my video-download issues).

I can't quite see from the video whether there is any EDIC system fitted but if it's come from the Honduras I think it's unlikely to have EDIC anyway.

An EDIC system allows the engine to be turned off with the ignition key.

So I think you're likely to have just this pull-knob to stop your engine:

.....
I am not completely satisfied that the system was completely bled of air. Do these BJs require any special steps in the bleeding process?..

Here's what my Owner's Manual says:

Note that Toyota has made a mistake in step 3 above, It should start with the word "crank" instead of "start" because until you've bled the injectors, it probably won't fire/start at all.

And here's a bit from another book just on bleeding the fuel filter:

...the experience that I had driving it till it would not run anymore. ...BJ was received in Nov 2014. after a few setbacks I finally got it to where I was able to drive it around the neighborhood. I then drove it to a nearby tire shop to put some newer tires on it. That was about a ten mile round trip. I then drove it to work the following week which is about 5 miles away. On my way back as the road started to incline the BJ felt like it was in first gear and eventually died on me in the middle of the road. I managed to start it and barely made it home. Ever since then I have experienced the same issue anytime I try going up even the lightest incline it will die. Eventually it got to where I could not even drive it without dying, not even a few feet. The last time I attempted to drive it was probably 1 1/2 to 2 months ago until I finally had it towed to the mechanic that is currently trying to work on it. Total miles driven was probably 25-35 miles total. When it ran it drove well. However, ever since the last time I attempted to drive it I've had no luck. Again I wanted you to have my input regarding my experience driving the BJ. Please let me know if this help. Thanks for all of your input so far.

Thanks Alex. That's a great help.

Personally I doubt air-contamination is the issue. And I say this because this BJ40 should be the same as mine in that it won't have any fuel return line going back to the fuel tank. Without a fuel return line (to carry any excess fuel delivered by the fuel pump and not wanted by the IP back to the tank) the fuel system has no "self-purging characteristic". So trapped air accumulates until the vehicle fails to start. (And this normally occurs after the vehicle has been left standing/unused for some time with restarting possible only after a fuel-bleeding operation has been carried out.

You describe a situation (at least in the initial stages) where your vehicle is "dying wherever you put your foot down for an incline".

This points to fuel contamination alright... but not with air... With "solid" contaminants.

So when was the fuel filter changed? And if it was changed, how dirty was it?

Note that the fuel system has strainers in the fuel line in addition to the cartridge-type fuel filter so these could be blocked also/instead.

For contaminants to reach and damage your IP, some seriously stupid steps would have to have been taken in its past life (so I still have high hopes it is alright).

 

[logansrun88]

Lostmarbles,


Thank you again! Very well explained and excellent diagrams etc. You are correct, this BJ has the pull lever that turns off the motor, the key alone will not. That said, does that mean this is the “B” motor? Alex is going to respond with what he did regarding changing the filter etc. After reading your suggestions and insight, we plan to focus on the fuel line / strainers etc and make sure there are no contaminants in the line.

Logan

 

[Alex Jones]

Dear Lostmarbles,

Thank you for your post. I changed the fuel filter about 1 1/2 to 2 months ago, the same time that I last attempted to drive it. The old fuel filter was old and rusted around the seal. This new fuel filter came attached to the top part that connects to the fuels lines. So I did not just replace the filter, I also replaced the part the fuel filter is connected to and had to reconnect the fuel lines. However, I continued to have the original problem of not being able to climb and at this point was not even able to drive even a few feet. If you recall I was able to drive it a good 20-30 miles for a few days prior having the climbing issues and changing out the filter.

 

[lostmarbles]

Lostmarbles,.
Thank you again! Very well explained and excellent diagrams etc. You are correct, this BJ has the pull lever that turns off the motor, the key alone will not. That said, does that mean this is the “B” motor? ..........

Sorry ... Yes. The engine is most certainly a 2977cc B-engine from what I see.

Dear Lostmarbles,

Thank you for your post. I changed the fuel filter about 1 1/2 to 2 months ago, the same time that I last attempted to drive it. The old fuel filter was old and rusted around the seal. This new fuel filter came attached to the top part that connects to the fuels lines. So I did not just replace the filter, I also replaced the part the fuel filter is connected to and had to reconnect the fuel lines. However, I continued to have the original problem of not being able to climb and at this point was not even able to drive even a few feet. If you recall I was able to drive it a good 20-30 miles for a few days prior having the climbing issues and changing out the filter.

Well unfortunately ... we are heading more and more towards what the mechanic has concluded. (ie. That the IP is getting fuel but not delivering any.)

Did you happen to look inside the old filter for contaminants?

I'm interested in what the new filter you fitted looks like...

Here's the fuel filter on my 2977cc B-engine.


Damn .... Sorry no more time today. (so I can't afford the time to get the pic even).........Gotta rush off to work...

 

[duncanrm]

If there a factory water separator fitted under the body, attached to the chassis rail.. I would remove it and add a newer one.. they sludge up. It caused my bus to run terribly..

 

[wrongway around]

Sorry I don't know the b system but can you not pull or bypass your fuel entry to the pump with a make shift can and a bicyle pump tee'd in for pressure bleeding need be .just to confirm before you basically by another truck. I've got a dd 6v71 in my bus and the are a bit of a B____ to bleed when doing a simple filter change let alone running out of fuel. And that is most of the big diesel shops guys just dont know the old school stuff.to the point that guys usually end up doing a total in frame , turbo , and pump rebuild. Not a chance I'd jump into the pump first up . Meaning your mechanic might be right but he'd be pretty gifted to call that right out of the gate not being a landcruiser B specialist let off a pump guy with a starter fluid endorsement.

 

[wrongway around]

Oops forgot my point with the DD 6v71 its usually the one way check valve that gets week or plugged from an internally deteriating fuel line. So the pressure goes back to the tank instead of to the injectors. Same plugged lines in a auto tranny can foul you into a rebuilt tranny . Start super simple (cheap ) I say .

 

[logansrun88]

Thanks dudncanrm / wrongway. Good tips and ideas. We'll be on this throughout the week and update as we progress.

 

[lostmarbles]

Hmmmm.

I keep thinking back to this:

...I changed the fuel filter about 1 1/2 to 2 months ago, the same time that I last attempted to drive it. The old fuel filter was old and rusted around the seal. This new fuel filter came attached to the top part that connects to the fuels lines. So I did not just replace the filter, I also replaced the part the fuel filter is connected to and had to reconnect the fuel lines. However, I continued to have the original problem of not being able to climb and at this point was not even able to drive even a few feet. If you recall I was able to drive it a good 20-30 miles for a few days prior having the climbing issues and changing out the filter.

With these driving issues, it would have been very important to look inside that old fuel filter for signs of foreign material such as water, rust, gum, petrol-smell etc..

With the original OEM fuel filter setup, the base is aluminium so as far as I can see it should have been only the throw-away cartridge that was rusty.

Here's the fuel filter on my spare engine (that I was trying to post yesterday before I ran out of time) to show you what I mean:

See how the top is alloy and the bottom steel shell (with Ryco Z169 written on it) is just the throwaway element part (that you can cut open to view the contaminants trapped on the pleated filter material inside).

Duncanrm makes a good point about the sedimenter. (I often forget about those because my BJ40 wasn't made with one.)

And there are indeed 2 check valves in your fuel pump. (One beneath your primer pump and the other in a similar position on the other side of the fuel pump).

While at work I was wondering if your symptoms would occur if a diesel engine had been mistakenly filled with petrol and run on that fuel for a considerable period (because of course petrol doesn't have the lubricity that your IP needs) but then I wrote that idea off because surely the different smell and feel of the fuel would have been noticed.

And I'm keen to see this new filter you installed too Alex, although surely it can't be related to your problem because the problem existed before you installed it and remained (and continued to worsen) afterwards.

Basically, your engine was idling nicely in the video, and if your IP has been damaged by contaminants, then I'd expect them to have been noticed during that filter change Alex.

So I'm very puzzled.

You could look at pulling the injector lines off the IP and cranking your engine to see whether any fuel dribbles out and whether there's any sign of contamination in there (but be very careful with cleanliness if you do because any debris getting into those lines is a death knell for your injector knozzles..



Edit: There is another thing that comes to mind... Diesel fuel has another characteristic that is quite different to petrol. It can support microbes... If this vehicle has sat for a considerable period then it's possible that microbes have damaged the fuel.

Microbiological Contamination of Diesel Fuel

Which could account for the problem .... but again that should have been picked up at the filter change too...

 

[Alex Jones]

Hey Tom,

How difficult do you think it would be to take out the IP ourselves and repair it? My father-in-law is from Brazil and he is very familiar with the FJ series of jeeps because they have them all over the place down there, and he as fixed and repaired BJ engines a number of times. They are called Bandeirantes down there. Or do you believe that we would need to take the IP to a diesel repair shop in order to repair due to special equipment that would be required? Please let me know when you get a chance. And Tom, thanks for all of your input and suggestions. I have learned a lot!

 

[lostmarbles]

Hey Tom,

How difficult do you think it would be to take out the IP ourselves and repair it? My father-in-law is from Brazil and he is very familiar with the FJ series of jeeps because they have them all over the place down there, and he as fixed and repaired BJ engines a number of times. They are called Bandeirantes down there. Or do you believe that we would need to take the IP to a diesel repair shop in order to repair due to special equipment that would be required? Please let me know when you get a chance. And Tom, thanks for all of your input and suggestions. I have learned a lot!

They're easy enough to remove I believe Alex, although I've never done it myself.

As for repair .... They have a great deal of internal parts, many of which are precision-machined and they say that a proper diesel injection specialist keeps their work area cleaner than an operating theatre.. And you really do need specialist equipment to check and calibrate the fuel delivery as I understand it.

This is what Pearly (in Malaysia posted of a pump being tested):

So as for any repair, I think it's best in specialist hands.



PS.. Not sure what's involved in removing that side cover.. Perhaps looking in there will help identify what your problem is (assuming you've eliminated all other possibilities than the injector pump itself).

 

[roscoFJ73]

Hey Tom,

How difficult do you think it would be to take out the IP ourselves and repair it? My father-in-law is from Brazil and he is very familiar with the FJ series of jeeps because they have them all over the place down there, and he as fixed and repaired BJ engines a number of times. They are called Bandeirantes down there. Or do you believe that we would need to take the IP to a diesel repair shop in order to repair due to special equipment that would be required? Please let me know when you get a chance. And Tom, thanks for all of your input and suggestions. I have learned a lot!

What do you think is wrong with the fuel injection pump? Im with Tom on taking it to a specialist. Very few diesel mechanics fix pumps in Australia,they take them to a shop with equipment like the one in the pic.
If a pump does need work ,it is best adjusted with new nozzle tips to get the best out of the injection system.