12ht Rebuild, just about finished -couple questions?

[niffa]

I think thats what the vac hose is for thats plumbed into the crossover pipe just after the flex pipe from the air filter. Underside of crossover pipe. I think anyway

 

[watrob]

Hi, could someone answer the following, on the VSV, one vac tube (the closest one on the vsv to the knob that expels air) goes to the actuator that shuts down the engine butterfly.


On the other end of the VSV the vac tube has a T-piece, one tube goes right around the front of the engine to alternator vac pump, the other vac tube off this T-piece goes where? its quite long and mine has no fitting on the end of it?


Does it go onto the firewall somewhere on a 60 series, to the air-con pump, --------------------


Robert

 

[Henry James the 47th]

Is the backing plate the manual bell housing attaches too the same as the one used by the auto transmission?

The backing plates are different between manual and automatic trans, but simple to swap.

Now, if I install the low pressure oil sensor from the 2H to 12ht (which I believe can be done) which works that if it senses low oil pressure by making the Edic motor lever the manual shut off valve on the IP to shut off. The EDIC also does this when the ignition is turn off (the same thing as the low oil pressure, it pushes the manual IP lever to shut off). I could send that signal to the switch that operates the vacuum shut off so the butterfly in the inlet manifold, so:-


1. Low oil pressure close the butterfly shuts down the engine.
2. Closes the butterfly when the ignition is turned off shuts down engine.


Your thoughts on this?

The problem with this is that there is no delay built into the system, so the low oil pressure you have at start up will simply lead to the engine being shut down before it gets started. You need a system to delay the reading of the low pressure switch for about a minute. This function is built into the EDIC controller ('fuel control relay'), but you won't be using EDIC. There is a solution: there's a company in Australia that makes the TM3 Engine Watchdog. I wired this in to my 47 series with 2H (My engine came from a HJ60 automatic so it has the same injection pump, more or less, as you have on the 12HT) and it has worked flawlessly for the past 7 years

 

[DanS HJ-45]

There is a solution: there's a company in Australia that makes the TM3 Engine Watchdog. I wired this in to my 47 series with 2H (My engine came from a HJ60 automatic so it has the same injection pump, more or less, as you have on the 12HT) and it has worked flawlessly for the past 7 years

You sir, are a legend.

That's precisely what I was looking for to make my other engines act as I would like...

And here's your oil pressure shutoff solution--done.

As to your questions on the vacuum VSV, go look at my 12HT/FJ-60 thread. I discuss it a bit there, and I think pics of the FSM are supplied to make it more clear.

Dan

 

[watrob]

You sir, are a legend.

That's precisely what I was looking for to make my other engines act as I would like...

And here's your oil pressure shutoff solution--done.

As to your questions on the vacuum VSV, go look at my 12HT/FJ-60 thread. I discuss it a bit there, and I think pics of the FSM are supplied to make it more clear.

Dan

I am going to use the Edic (test anyway) on the 12ht by using wires 2 & 3, Run & shutdown on the manual stop lever on the 12ht IP. With ignition ON it will pull the lever into run position (the manual lever is internally spring loaded on the 12ht and is in the run position).


When I turn off the ignition it will push the leaver forward to manual stop. This way the low oil pressure system will still work via the edic motor. I don't need over injection, the 12ht IP does not do that anyway.


The last thing to check is whether I also use the VSV switch, I just need someone to measure whether the switch has power on it while the engine is running or is power applied when the ignition is turned off and if power is applied when the ignition is turned off is it on a timer, I cannot believe that you would have power on this switch permanently with ignition off?


Dan, going back to one of your statement in regards to that's not how an edic works, with the 3 wires which activates the edic would not it be that power is switched on via time. That is with ignition ON power goes on wire one to the edic for so many seconds to draw the IP lever from STOP passed RUN to OVER INJECT, then on start the second wire gives power for so many second pushing the lever into the RUN position. The last wire gives power to push the lever to OFF?


I cannot believe the edic motor has any builtin logic as far as an internal timer or relays, it's a simpie motor that rotates a mechanism.


If wire 3 has power on it for say 5 secs or so why could one not use that to activate the VSV switch, how long does it take for the butterfly to close once the vacuum pressure is released, the actuator is spring loaded so it would be pretty quick at closing?


Any thoughts?

 

[Henry James the 47th]

Jeez, I think you're going in the totally wrong direction with this plan to put the EDIC in there. The vacuum-actuated injection pump is a thing of beauty, and having the single, simple VSV in there to control engine shut off is great. You want to replace all that with the EDIC and its notoriously temperamental fuel control relay? It doesn't add any pluses I can see, save for the low pressure shut off control (assuming the EDIC fuel relay is functioning properly).

To each their own of course.

 

[peteinjp]

Couldn't you just use a relay to switch the 12ht off triggered by an on off type oil pressure sensor? And wire the starter switch to bypasses the relay for starting?

Pete

 

[watrob]

Jeez, I think you're going in the totally wrong direction with this plan to put the EDIC in there. The vacuum-actuated injection pump is a thing of beauty, and having the single, simple VSV in there to control engine shut off is great. You want to replace all that with the EDIC and its notoriously temperamental fuel control relay? It doesn't add any pluses I can see, save for the low pressure shut off control (assuming the EDIC fuel relay is functioning properly).

To each their own of course.

I don't really want to use the edic but rather use the one of the 3 wires that go to it. As mentioned in a earlier thread, these wire must have voltage on for certain amount of time

Dan, going back to one of your statement in regards to that's not how an edic works, with the 3 wires which activates the edic would not it be that power is switched on via time. That is with ignition ON power goes on wire one to the edic for so many seconds to draw the IP lever from STOP passed RUN to OVER INJECT, then on start the second wire gives power for so many second pushing the lever into the RUN position. The last wire gives power to push the lever to OFF?


If wire 3 has power on it for say 5 secs or so why could one not use that to activate the VSV switch, how long does it take for the butterfly to close once the vacuum pressure is released, the actuator is spring loaded so it would be pretty quick at closing?
.

If this is possible then my current wiring loom will work?


On another note can some with 12ht track this down for me:-


Could someone answer the following, on the VSV, one vac tube (the closest one on the VSV to the knob that expels air) goes to the actuator that shuts down the engine butterfly in the inlet manifold.

On the other end of the VSV the vac tube has a T-piece, one tube goes right around the front of the engine to alternator vac pump, the other vac tube off this T-piece goes where? its quite long and mine has no fitting on the end of it?

Does it go onto a switch on the firewall somewhere on a 60 series or to the air-con pump, --------------------?


FSM shows it actually has plug it but that might be for a manual transmission, the 12ht I have is off a auto?

 

[blis]

I don't really want to use the edic but rather use the one of the 3 wires that go to it. As mentioned in a earlier thread, these wire must have voltage on for certain amount of time





If this is possible then my current wiring loom will work?


On another note can some with 12ht track this down for me:-


Could someone answer the following, on the VSV, one vac tube (the closest one on the VSV to the knob that expels air) goes to the actuator that shuts down the engine butterfly in the inlet manifold.

On the other end of the VSV the vac tube has a T-piece, one tube goes right around the front of the engine to alternator vac pump, the other vac tube off this T-piece goes where? its quite long and mine has no fitting on the end of it?

Does it go onto a switch on the firewall somewhere on a 60 series or to the air-con pump, --------------------?


FSM shows it actually has plug it but that might be for a manual transmission, the 12ht I have is off a auto?

It might go to vsv that actuates the 4wd...

 

[Henry James the 47th]

Could someone answer the following, on the VSV, one vac tube (the closest one on the VSV to the knob that expels air) goes to the actuator that shuts down the engine butterfly in the inlet manifold.

On the other end of the VSV the vac tube has a T-piece, one tube goes right around the front of the engine to alternator vac pump, the other vac tube off this T-piece goes where? its quite long and mine has no fitting on the end of it?

Does it go onto a switch on the firewall somewhere on a 60 series or to the air-con pump, --------------------?

Is this of any help?:

 

[watrob]

Is this of any help?:

Yes I have this schematic, the tube coming off the T-piece from the VSV item number 90339-03005 on this schematic shows as a bung (plug) but on my engine it's a long piece of vacuum tubing around 24 inches long........to where?


My engine was from a auto?

See this is what confused me, If you apply power to the VSV that's fine, it releases vacuum from the butterfly actuator and shuts down the engine but this extra tube needs to connected to something otherwise I have a vacuum leak?

 

[Henry James the 47th]

I would bet that hose you mention has something to do with the transfer case vacuum actuator. See diagram below. Hose 36409A in the diagram is spec'd at 1120mm in length.

Mine had some throttle cables going to the auto transmission, which I removed in modifying the throttle linkage.

 

[watrob]

I would bet that hose you mention has something to do with the transfer case vacuum actuator. See diagram below. Hose 36409A in the diagram is spec'd at 1120mm in length.

Mine had some throttle cables going to the auto transmission, which I removed in modifying the throttle linkage.

Suppose the only way to find out is to check a 12ht in a auto, the kick down bracket attached to throttle on my engine was already removed when I bought it?


I can always put a plug in it for the time being.


So the last thing is now is to test the length time that power is applied to the 3 wires going to the edic motor so instead of using the edic for shut down I can use that wire to the SVS if it has power for around 5 sec.........?

 

[DanS HJ-45]

I would bet that hose you mention has something to do with the transfer case vacuum actuator. See diagram below. Hose 36409A in the diagram is spec'd at 1120mm in length.

The vacuum for the T-case VSVs did come from the shutoff VSV supply on ours. We ditched the vacuum T-case, so I removed the T's from the Vacuum lines.

Dan

 

[watrob]

The vacuum for the T-case VSVs did come from the shutoff VSV supply on ours. We ditched the vacuum T-case, so I removed the T's from the Vacuum lines.

Dan

Thanks Dan, that solves that problem.


Now, I am trying to find out how long the power would be active on the 3rd wire which does to the edic that runs the edic motor lever to the shut off position?


If it has power for say 5 secs then that would be time enough if connected to the VSV to release the vacuum and snap shut the butterfly in the inlet manifold and shut down the engine? This would also work fir loss of oil pressure as well?


Your thoughts on this?

 

[Henry James the 47th]

You need a switch control which does not activate something like 60 seconds or so, before taking a reading from the low pressure switch. It can take a while to build oil pressure.

 

[simonliew]

The 2h flywheel is the same as 12ht,make sure u get the 12ht pressure plate ,higher clamping force.

 

[watrob]

The 2h flywheel is the same as 12ht,make sure u get the 12ht pressure plate ,higher clamping force.

Are you talking about the clutch pressure plate? I am using a after market heavy duty pressure plate & clutch upgrade?

 

[Turbonazi77]

You can definitely control the VSV with the original 2h edic control relay and retain the low oil pressure safety cut out. I converted my HJ60 to 12HT a couple of months ago got it to work. Power and earth for the solenoid must come form the relay. From memory the start and run outputs needed bridging together otherwise the valve would not open while cranking.

 

[simonliew]

What brand r u using?
What's the cost?
I'm converting a hj61 auto to 5 speed now,still looking for all the pieces.