EDIC timer, how many seconds?

[pedrocalima]

I'm quite new to this forum but could already learn lots from you guys.
I was searching about the EDIC low pressure cutoff on start-up and couldn't find how many seconds it should take.

My BJ42 24V takes around 8 seconds. I read about someone that had 5 seconds and after changing the capacitor came up to 8 seconds. I also read something about 15 seconds...

What would be the right time?

My concern is that during chilly mornings (0 Celsius) it takes me 2 tries to make the oil pressure to raise, but it barely need the second try, the oil rises almost instantaneously after I turn the key the second time.

I'm running synthetic 5W40 at the moment, the engine hass 230.000 Km and starts on half a second after I turn the key.

Anyone?

Ah, when it gets to -20 Celsius EDIC cuts if off around 4 times before the oil pressure raises. The car sleeps outside and is never plugged in.

 

[lostmarbles]

I can't answer your question but I have a suggestion...


The oil switch "opens on rising pressure" so you can do what Toyota did on very early BJ40s. You can install a "Cold Start Switch" into the wire to your oil switch so that when you "hit this switch" it creates an open-circuit there.

That way you don't need to muck around with the electronics in your EDIC relay (if you want to continue starting your BJ42 easily at -20 oC when left outside without being plugged in).

Here's an excerpt from the early B-engine repair FSM describing it:


(Ignore the way Toyota has drawn the switch. They always seem to do it badly in my opinion.)

Switch part number 84592-56010 SWITCH, COLD START used BJ4# from Feb 1974 to July 1980.

 

[hj 60]

I only look for hj60 info but there is one oil pressure sender to the dash, and one switch under the starter (maybe not exactly same partnumber)

If you use the hand throttle to put it to 850 rpm it should stay running, mine sometimes just switches of at 600-650 rpm cold start.
Sometimes if you throttle just at the right time it switches of and restarts/keeps running at the same time.

There is a lot on oil but 5w40 might be to thin to build oil pressure.
Today I changed oil from 10w40 to 15w40 and the pressure goes up: that is a fake measure but the thicker oil has more resistance going trough the oil system and everybody is happy that the oil pressure is instant high. 15w40 is mineral oil and that seems better for the engine but a lot of topics about that

Here the switch looks at a pressure and not at time (time is generally what people observe but the switch itself is not time opereated (as far as I understand)
The EDIC is the chicken and the egg story: no start without pressure but no pressure without start so that is when the edic relay uses time to ignore the low/no pressure at startup. (5 seconds for hj60)

This one has a black/yellow wire.

to keep the info complete, not specific your bj42
SWITCH ASSY, OIL PRESSURE
08.1980 - 02.1985= 8353014010
8353028030

SW-P1003
TOYOTA,SUZUKI,SUBARU,NISSAN,MITSUBISHI,MAZDA,KIA,HYUNDAI,DAEWOO,FORD

Oil pressure to dash:

 

[pedrocalima]

I can't answer your question but I have a suggestion...


The oil switch "opens on rising pressure" so you can do what Toyota did on very early BJ40s. You can install a "Cold Start Switch" into the wire to your oil switch so that when you "hit this switch" it creates an open-circuit there.

That way you don't need to muck around with the electronics in your EDIC relay (if you want to continue starting your BJ42 easily at -20 oC when left outside without being plugged in).

Here's an excerpt from the early B-engine repair FSM describing it:
View attachment 725888

(Ignore the way Toyota has drawn the switch. They always seem to do it badly in my opinion.)

Switch part number 84592-56010 SWITCH, COLD START used BJ4# from Feb 1974 to July 1980.

I've been searching all the EDIC info I could and I never heard of this switch! Thanks!
I understand how it works and understand that it would solve fit my needs.
My question now is, how long is it "safe" to wait for the oil pressure to rise? I don't want to risk killing my engine.

Now I was thinking... does the switch really "opens on rising pressure"???
If the sensor wire looses it's connection to the sensor it would look like an "open" and the EDIC wouldn't cut the fuel? Shouldn't it be the oposite?

 

[pedrocalima]

I only look for hj60 info but there is one oil pressure sender to the dash, and one switch under the starter (maybe not exactly same partnumber)

If you use the hand throttle to put it to 850 rpm it should stay running, mine sometimes just switches of at 600-650 rpm cold start.
Sometimes if you throttle just at the right time it switches of and restarts/keeps running at the same time.

There is a lot on oil but 5w40 might be to thin to build oil pressure.
Today I changed oil from 10w40 to 15w40 and the pressure goes up: that is a fake measure but the thicker oil has more resistance going trough the oil system and everybody is happy that the oil pressure is instant high. 15w40 is mineral oil and that seems better for the engine but a lot of topics about that

Here the switch looks at a pressure and not at time (time is generally what people observe but the switch itself is not time opereated (as far as I understand)
The EDIC is the chicken and the egg story: no start without pressure but no pressure without start so that is when the edic relay uses time to ignore the low/no pressure at startup. (5 seconds for hj60)

[URL="http://hj60.freeforums.org/download/file.php?id=173"][URL="http://hj60.freeforums.org/download/file.php?id=173"][/URL][/URL]
This one has a black/yellow wire.

to keep the info complete, not specific your bj42
SWITCH ASSY, OIL PRESSURE
08.1980 - 02.1985= 8353014010
8353028030

SW-P1003
TOYOTA,SUZUKI,SUBARU,NISSAN,MITSUBISHI,MAZDA,KIA,HYUNDAI,DAEWOO,FORD

Oil pressure to dash:
[URL="http://hj60.freeforums.org/download/file.php?id=170"][URL="http://hj60.freeforums.org/download/file.php?id=170"][/URL][/URL]

I have to use the hand throttle every morning. In my case the engine revs around 1000rpm, maybe a bit under.

I've been reading a lot about oils too, there is lots of different opinions and it's difficult to decide. As here we have some very cold days I went for 5w40, even thought about 0w40...

What I noticed is that when cold (just after starting) it revs around 670 rpm, after some Kms it rises to 760 and stays there.
Reading the specs the idle should be at 650rpm for a 3B n/a. Mine has a aftermarket turbo, does that changes anything regarding the idling???
Can that small oscillation be due to diaphragm problems

 

[pedrocalima]

I've been searching all the EDIC info I could and I never heard of this switch! Thanks!
I understand how it works and understand that it would solve fit my needs.
My question now is, how long is it "safe" to wait for the oil pressure to rise? I don't want to risk killing my engine.

Now I was thinking... does the switch really "opens on rising pressure"???
If the sensor wire looses it's connection to the sensor it would look like an "open" and the EDIC wouldn't cut the fuel? Shouldn't it be the oposite?

Reading on the test procedure to check if the EDIC is working properly confirms that the sensor for the oil pressure "opens on rising pressure" my bad :whoops:

 

[hj 60]

Yes check diaphragm for sure as all NON TURBO rev climbings I have read about were from diaphragm, did you remove oil (if possible, this is hj60)
The Turbo has an automatic rev climber as far as I know but I dont remember that stuff because I dont have no turbo.

PNEUMATIC GOVERNOR 22303-47010 pump 22010-68052
(8510- )2H.5F from 198510.

Wrench #10 to open =counter clockwise:

 

[pedrocalima]

I think I will drain the oil from the diaphragm but before that I will buy a new one.

If I remember correctly I read about someone with a bad diaphragm that drained the oil and saw the idle raise to 2000 rpms

Thanks for the pictures, they will be very helpful!

 

[lostmarbles]

......
My question now is, how long is it "safe" to wait for the oil pressure to rise? I don't want to risk killing my engine.....

Hullo again Pedrocalima.

I think holding the button down (or pulling it out, depending on how that OEM spring-return switch works?) for 10 seconds would be fine.

And I think it is well recognised that when you're encountering negative 20 oC start-ups you're better off with a lower W-figure viscosity oil like the 5W-40 you've been using.

But if you're genuinely interested in babying your 3B, you'd be better off using a block heater. However, you sound like the type of person that would already know this. So I assume circumstances are forcing you to leave your BJ42 outside and unplugged at -20 oC. In which case, I'd say that just because it may take 10 seconds to build oil pressure doesn't mean you've got no lube at all for that amount of time. (And synthetic oils are particularly good at keeping a sticky oil film on components after shut-down AFAIK.) And furthermore...Toyota factory-installed those cold-start switches so they obviously approve.



PS. I had never heard of a "cold start switch" before I stumbled across that information yesterday when looking for a figure for the EDIC time delay in an old B-engine FSM.

 

[pedrocalima]

Hullo again Pedrocalima.

I think holding the button down (or pulling it out, depending on how that OEM spring-return switch works?) for 10 seconds would be fine.

And I think it is well recognised that when you're encountering negative 20 oC start-ups you're better off with a lower W-figure viscosity oil like the 5W-40 you've been using.

But if you're genuinely interested in babying your 3B, you'd be better off using a block heater. However, you sound like the type of person that would already know this. So I assume circumstances are forcing you to leave your BJ42 outside and unplugged at -20 oC. In which case, I'd say that just because it may take 10 seconds to build oil pressure doesn't mean you've got no lube at all for that amount of time. (And synthetic oils are particularly good at keeping a sticky oil film on components after shut-down AFAIK.) And furthermore...Toyota factory-installed those cold-start switches so they obviously approve.



PS. I had never heard of a "cold start switch" before I stumbled across that information yesterday when looking for a figure for the EDIC time delay in an old B-engine FSM.

You are right, I wish I had a warm garage or at least a power outlet available for the block heather, but I don't
One great option would be a Webasto to heat the coolant before I even get to the car, but those things cost over 1000€!!!

I was reading a lot here in the forum about oils and that’s why I went with synthetic and 5W40, it really doesn’t feel good to see how the engine suffers in cold mornings. The good point is that usually we don’t have that many -20C days a year

I will try that "cold start switch" install, I sounds like a good idea and as you said, Toyota itself was using it in the old times so it’s a reasonable solution.

Thanks!

 

[Fey1]

You can also always try to install an engine pre-oiler system. A nice pump unit can be had for only a few $100.

http://www.enginegearonline.com/

The pump plus a few other external bits (filter, check valve, etc.) and you can get the oil pressure up before starting your engine.

 

[pedrocalima]

You can also always try to install an engine pre-oiler system. A nice pump unit can be had for only a few $100.

http://www.enginegearonline.com/

The pump plus a few other external bits (filter, check valve, etc.) and you can get the oil pressure up before starting your engine.

Do you know anybody that did this before???

Sounds interesting

 

[DanS HJ-45]

Do you know anybody that did this before???

Sounds interesting

Yep. It's done regularly on industrial motors.

It really helps to avoid dry starts, and for most engines makes it start right up (I'm assuming that engines with hydraulic lifters benefit most from being pre-oiled).

When I rebuild one of the 1HZs, I'll make sure to budget for a pre-oiling pump, for just that reason. The longevity of a pre-oiled engine should be significantly better than not.

BTW--our 3B EDIC disregards the low oil pressure signal for 22 seconds.

Dan

 

[pedrocalima]

Yep. It's done regularly on industrial motors.

It really helps to avoid dry starts, and for most engines makes it start right up (I'm assuming that engines with hydraulic lifters benefit most from being pre-oiled).

When I rebuild one of the 1HZs, I'll make sure to budget for a pre-oiling pump, for just that reason. The longevity of a pre-oiled engine should be significantly better than not.

BTW--our 3B EDIC disregards the low oil pressure signal for 22 seconds.

Dan

22 seconds

Mine cuts engine in less than 8

I was searching for examples and possible pumps to use and came across some interesting links:
http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/672226-post25.html
http://www.dodgeram.org/tech/engine/prelube_const.htm
From there to:
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/1546/Differential_Cooler_Pump
http://www.dultmeier.com/products/search/7412

Looks like Amsoil had a kit for pre-lube but it doesn’t sell anymore.

I will keep searching…

 

[Moe R]

I put this on my 3B and it works great. I never get a low oil preasure shut off. Almost instant oil preasure on the gauge (mechanical) .


http://insta-lube.com/

 

[pedrocalima]

Oil Radiator!!!

I missed it!

The PO installed an oil radiator using those sandwich rings between the engine and the oil filter. I'm assuming that for an oil radiator to work that way the "sandwich" is full flows reroute right?

I know we have those sandwiches for sensors were the oil continues to flow as usual and get in contact with the sensors but in the case of a radiator the oil has go around and back.

In my case the radiator has both roses connected to the sandwich. That might be the biggest oil restriction on cold days and the cause of the delay for oil pressure to build up!

Does my reasoning make sense?

On this thread I found pictures of what I think I have in my truck:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/288749-oil-cooler-h.html

The oil path is: oil pump -> relieve valve -> Oil filter -> engine right?
If the radiator it too restrictive would the relieve valve open and let the oil circulate to the engine without being filtrated or circulated thought the radiator???

Help please.

 

[blis]

I missed it!

The PO installed an oil radiator using those sandwich rings between the engine and the oil filter. I'm assuming that for an oil radiator to work that way the "sandwich" is full flows reroute right?

I know we have those sandwiches for sensors were the oil continues to flow as usual and get in contact with the sensors but in the case of a radiator the oil has go around and back.

In my case the radiator has both roses connected to the sandwich. That might be the biggest oil restriction on cold days and the cause of the delay for oil pressure to build up!

Does my reasoning make sense?

On this thread I found pictures of what I think I have in my truck:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/288749-oil-cooler-h.html

The oil path is: oil pump -> relieve valve -> Oil filter -> engine right?
If the radiator it too restrictive would the relieve valve open and let the oil circulate to the engine without being filtrated or circulated thought the radiator???

Help please.

Considering you're in finland you might just scrap that oil cooler, it really doesnt get that hot over here that you would need one.... And yes, if the relief valve pops it should bypass the filter (the filter actually has built-in relief valve)....

 

[pedrocalima]

Im writing from inside my toyota. I just removed the auxiliary oil radiator and the sandwich.
Turned the engine on and straight away 1/4 of higher oil pressure on the original gauge! And today is a hot day (0 Celsius), I can't even imagine the difference on a cold day!!!
Edic didn't even think about shutting it down.

Just feelind bad now for turning on every day for the last 2 months of winter without proper oil pressure on startup.
Hope I didn't screw up anything inside there.

 

[lostmarbles]

....The PO installed an oil radiator using those sandwich rings between the engine and the oil filter. I'm assuming that for an oil radiator to work that way the "sandwich" is full flows reroute right?

I know we have those sandwiches for sensors were the oil continues to flow as usual and get in contact with the sensors but in the case of a radiator the oil has go around and back.

In my case the radiator has both roses connected to the sandwich. That might be the biggest oil restriction on cold days and the cause of the delay for oil pressure to build up!

Does my reasoning make sense?

On this thread I found pictures of what I think I have in my truck:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/288749-oil-cooler-h.html

The oil path is: oil pump -> relieve valve -> Oil filter -> engine right?
If the radiator it too restrictive would the relieve valve open and let the oil circulate to the engine without being filtrated or circulated thought the radiator???

Help please.

Im writing from inside my toyota. I just removed the auxiliary oil radiator and the sandwich.
Turned the engine on and straight away 1/4 of higher oil pressure on the original gauge! And today is a hot day (0 Celsius), I can't even imagine the difference on a cold day!!!
Edic didn't even think about shutting it down.

Just feelind bad now for turning on every day for the last 2 months of winter without proper oil pressure on startup.
Hope I didn't screw up anything inside there.

I'm confused by this "oil radiator" and "sandwich".

Are you talking about the oil cooler which on a BJ42 3B engine normally looks like this?:


Or perhaps you have the more-compact less-serviceable older version that looks like this?:


And if you ARE talking about one of these, have you removed it to increase your oil pressure?

 

[pedrocalima]

I think I confused you this time

My engine has the first version you posted, btw I didn't know the second version existed.

What I removed was an extra oil radiator that the PO installed. In the picture you can see the sandwich that was redirecting ALL the oil flow thought the extra radiator placed in front of the water radiator. That is way I got pissed with myself, I should have done that 2 months ago!

On cold mornings with the oil looking like honey the oil pump had to push the oil all the way around this extra radiator. That was definitely lowering my oil pressure and causing the EDIC to shut down just after starting the engine.

I think the PO was afraid of overheating after the turbo install, or he had overheating problems that I still don't know about (never drove the car on summer yet).

You can also see the on the picture the original oil cooler case on the engine body.