SAFARI Turbo Dyno Results - AFR Questions (1 Viewer)

[yoda-g3]

I've had these since 2004 but just dug them up in relation to a boost discussion in another thread. I figured the turbo heads out there wouldn't mind seeing real world numbers.

These were done with the CDL locked at sea level with the front drive line off and power measured at the rear wheels. If I recall correctly is was also at 6-7psi. Unichip was installed during all runs. K & N in stock filter housing.

My question - I'm toying with bumping the boost up to 10psi and potentially adding a Landtank MAF and retain my Unichip. Any thought on this with looking at the AFR numbers?

Red shows the average of the first two runs pre FMU. Basically the setup in its stock form. Blue shows post FMU. You can see it makes a nice little bump.

 

[yoda-g3]

Here we have the last dyno run after a full 3" exhaust was installed with a high flow cat. Again you can see a nice bump when you let her breath easier. To me the AFR looks pretty solid.

 

[yoda-g3]

Here's an original parts list to end some of the debate on what turbos shipped with these guys. (At the top.)

 

[yoda-g3]

Last, for fun, here's the original flyer for the kit. Not quite the numbers they were claiming, but I guess if you figure I was measuring at the wheels and they were at the crank, with a 15-25% loss in the auto, then its not too far fetched.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

Honestly it looks insanely lean in the last run. All of them look lean to the point I would have backed out before the run finished.

That looks like a fuel system that is far beyond what it can handle safely. If you look at that AFR graph its almost 16:1 AF at full boost, that is really for a non boosted car. For a boosted motor you want the AFR around 12:1 to be safe, most factory boosted Toyota's play it safe and they run into the 10:1 under boost from the factory.

If that is representative of the way the 1fz runs under boost I'm going to need to re evaluate my plans, I would not trust a set up like that to last with out melting a motor.

 

[yoda-g3]

Honestly it looks insanely lean in the last run. All of them look lean to the point I would have backed out before the run finished.

That looks like a fuel system that is far beyond what it can handle safely. If you look at that AFR graph its almost 16:1 AF at full boost, that is really for a non boosted car. For a boosted motor you want the AFR around 12:1 to be safe, most factory boosted Toyota's play it safe and they run into the 10:1 under boost from the factory.

If that is representative of the way the 1fz runs under boost I'm going to need to re evaluate my plans, I would not trust a set up like that to last with out melting a motor.

Hmmm, interesting. I thought that staying close to 14.7 is where you want to be at. FWIW, that was almost 100k ago with a decent amount of towing, and a couple good dune trips and so far so good. You now have me thinking that tossing the Unichip and using LT's MAF might be a better route. I'd like to see some numbers from other people running boost on a stock ECU.

 

[akarilo]

Honestly it looks insanely lean in the last run. All of them look lean to the point I would have backed out before the run finished.

That looks like a fuel system that is far beyond what it can handle safely. If you look at that AFR graph its almost 16:1 AF at full boost, that is really for a non boosted car. For a boosted motor you want the AFR around 12:1 to be safe, most factory boosted Toyota's play it safe and they run into the 10:1 under boost from the factory.QUOTE]

Absolutely. I don't know what was used to measure the AFR, but I find it hard to believe that those numbers are accurate. In the 12's is the sweet spot for full throttle forced induction setups. 15-16 is asking for a hole in a piston IMO. Wideband is the only way to get an accurate indication of AFR. I wouldn't chance my motor to anything else.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

Hmmm, interesting. I thought that staying close to 14.7 is where you want to be at. FWIW, that was almost 100k ago with a decent amount of towing, and a couple good dune trips and so far so good. You now have me thinking that tossing the Unichip and using LT's MAF might be a better route. I'd like to see some numbers from other people running boost on a stock ECU.

Yeah on a non boosted engine 14.7 is the aim depending how the engine reacts you can adjust it up and down from there. On a boosted engine its 12-12.5:1, I have never tuned any leaner than that because the knock threshold creeps into play depending on timing, EGT's are also a factor as well.

I am surprised that you have been able to run it that long and under those conditions with out having a piston melt or a cracked ring land. I guess it speaks volumes for the strength of the 1fz. On my 2jz I had one of the 3 fuel pumps drop out and it only took 10sec to burn a hole through two pistons and turn the rest into paper weights (that was at 27psi though).

 

[yoda-g3]

Absolutely. I don't know what was used to measure the AFR, but I find it hard to believe that those numbers are accurate. In the 12's is the sweet spot for full throttle forced induction setups. 15-16 is asking for a hole in a piston IMO. Wideband is the only way to get an accurate indication of AFR. I wouldn't chance my motor to anything else.

Those were done by the PO before I bought the rig.

I do know that at some point the set screw that meters the boost came loose on him and it was insanely high for a short span, but he claimed to have had it fixed right away because it freaked him out. (Judging form the encyclopedia of receipts and service records he had I believe him.) I doubt he would've dyno'd it while it was like that, but I guess you never know.

Either way, I just found a local shop that will do do 4 base runs for $90 with a wide-band on it. I'm thinking that's the best place to start before I start mucking with crap. But you do have me concerned now....

 

[yoda-g3]

Yeah on a non boosted engine 14.7 is the aim depending how the engine reacts you can adjust it up and down from there. On a boosted engine its 12-12.5:1, I have never tuned any leaner than that because the knock threshold creeps into play depending on timing, EGT's are also a factor as well.

I am surprised that you have been able to run it that long and under those conditions with out having a piston melt or a cracked ring land. I guess it speaks volumes for the strength of the 1fz. On my 2jz I had one of the 3 fuel pumps drop out and it only took 10sec to burn a hole through two pistons and turn the rest into paper weights (that was at 27psi though).

Well hopefully that was a bad test to work off of. Maybe in 2004 they did things different????

On EGT's, I've had a meter on there for years right off of #6 cylinder in the exhaust manifold pre turbo, but have never had anyone give me a good gas temp reference point. Everything out there is for diesels, but I'm regularly between 1200-1400. Seems high at first but that is like 2"-3" form the head on #6. The hottest spot you'll find. Even by the turbo its a few hundred cooler. Its never had a pinging issue either that I've detected.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

Those were done by the PO before I bought the rig.

I do know that at some point the set screw that meters the boost came loose on him and it was insanely high for a short span, but he claimed to have had it fixed right away because it freaked him out. (Judging form the encyclopedia of receipts and service records he had I believe him.) I doubt he would've dyno'd it while it was like that, but I guess you never know.

Either way, I just found a local shop that will do do 4 base runs for $90 with a wide-band on it. I'm thinking that's the best place to start before I start mucking with crap. But you do have me concerned now....

Well I'm glad you are getting it checked out. The boost issue he had before was likely a boost reference line to the Waste gate popped off. I have had that happen nemourouse times and its always exciting when it happens. If he had dynoed it like that there is no doubt it would have been one run and done.

There is a chance the wideband used on those runs was bad (unlikely but I have seen then die before on the dyno). I always run my own in the car so I cross reference the two.

I think getting a couple runs done as it sits now is a good idea, I would not let the AFR get up to the 15-16 areas though at all no mater what, I would not let it go over 13 AFR under WOT and under boost. It is common for it to be 13-14 before the boost starts to roll in but by the time to boost reaches 2-3 psi it should have levelled off in the 12AFR area, if it keeps climbing get out of it right away. If they have them ask the show to use knock ears as well and listen for any knock (this kills engines faster than anything else).

Looking forward to seeing the results.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

Well hopefully that was a bad test to work off of. Maybe in 2004 they did things different????

On EGT's, I've had a meter on there for years right off of #6 cylinder in the exhaust manifold pre turbo, but have never had anyone give me a good gas temp reference point. Everything out there is for diesels, but I'm regularly between 1200-1400. Seems high at first but that is like 2"-3" form the head on #6. The hottest spot you'll find. Even by the turbo its a few hundred cooler. Its never had a pinging issue either that I've detected.

I did this stuff in 2004, nothing has changed that much

Your EGT's sound safe to me, I used 1500-1600f as my cut off point. Once I knew how engines worked and how they reacted to tuning I stopped using EGT gauges.

Let us know how the dyno goes.

 

[landtank]

a stock system runs at 14.7 until open loop and then goes to 12.3.

People who have wide band O2 sensors on both SC and TC trucks typically see 14.7 until open loop, then a short time of 12.3 and then 8.6 with a stock MAF or 10.1 with my MAF afterwards.

As stated that is really too lean and I'd blame the unichip for it.

 

[turbodreams3000]

As mentioned, your AFR's on the dyno graphs are way too lean. For an occasional driver on a turbo'd car you want to be around 11.5-12.0 AFR's when boosting. For a daily driver that sees different elevations, different ambient air temps, etc... You want to be around 10.0-10.5 AFR's.

My guess is that they put the wideband sensor sniffer into the tailpipe and the readings are way off after going through your catalytic converter and several feet of piping. Get a wideband O2 sensor bung welded into the downpipe and put a wideband sensor/gauge setup in. That way you can monitor actual air fuel ratios directly after the turbo.

Great info though. And good to see some solid dyno numbers.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

My guess is that they put the wideband sensor sniffer into the tailpipe and the readings are way off after going through your catalytic converter and several feet of piping. Get a wideband O2 sensor bung welded into the downpipe and put a wideband sensor/gauge setup in. That way you can monitor actual air fuel ratios directly after the turbo.

Great info though. And good to see some solid dyno numbers.

That's a very good point that I had overlooked and forgotten about. The Cat will sent the Wideband readings off for sure, there is no solid number it will be off though. All the cars I did and built had a sensor bung 2ft from the turbo in the exhaust pre cat. Running a WBO2 in the truck all the time is a great way to quickly see if something has changed (fuel pump losing it, boost pipe leak...list goes on). When you mount the sensor make sure its mounted so it does not get water condensation build up in it when the truck cold starts.

 

[pgmatt]

Buy a wideband with gauge kit and install it so you can monitor it live. They are cheap and easy to install. There are many brands such as AEM,Innovative etc .

 

[yoda-g3]

Buy a wideband with gauge kit and install it so you can monitor it live. They are cheap and easy to install. There are many brands such as AEM,Innovative etc .

Ya the EGT has been rather useless. AFR would be much more helpful. When I get my downpipe rebuilt this weekend I'll have them toss a bung in a good spot.

 

[pgmatt]

I'm super jealous of your setup I can't wait to boost my LX450 it is just begging for it. HP numbers look good considering driveline loss would be high in a LC. Must be nice with all that torque.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

I'm not sure if innovative has improved over the last couple years but they where tear able back about 3 years ago, all over the place on readings.

I have used FJO, AEM and Innovative. The AEM was always reliable and I would get about 2 years out of the sensors before needing to change them in Daily driven cars ($40 sensor). The FJO was fantastic but not in a daily driven car the sensors for those are $300. All the innovative Wideband I used went back for warranties or returned all together, I never had one work reliably for any amount of time.

 

[clownmidget]

It doesn't clearly show it, but the Safari manifold is divided/twin scroll and uses a T3 flange. The turbo (Garrett) uses a divided/twin scroll T3 housing.

Yoda-G3 are you saying someone has drilled a hole in the Safari manifold and has the EGT sensor mounted in it at the #6 exhaust port?