Starter almost caused a fire!

[subzali]

Almost had a fire today. If I hadn't on a hunch handed my dad the 1/2 wrench to take the positive lead off the battery we might have been too late! Backbround: since we purchased "Brahma" the ignition has been finicky. Sometimes the starter (presumably the solenoid) will click when you turn the key to the start position. But it has always caught at some point and started right up.

Well it came about time to fix the problem, so we ordered a remanned lifetime warranteed starter from NAPA to resolve the issue. Took it home and connected it all up. Turned the key. Click. Then nothing, gauges didn't really seem responsive like normal when I turned the key to the on position. Funny...

So my dad comes over to look at it, I hand him the wrench and tell him what it's for (thanks to you guys for giving me a heads-up ), and he said to try again. So I tried. Nothing. He said to turn the key off. I looked at him with the facial expression that it was. He repeated to turn it off. I confirmed his request by pulling the key out of the ignition and then got out because I could tell he was in a hurry doing something. I got around to view the battery and starter and it was smoking! Well he was well on his way to getting the lead off, and after successfully removing it we felt it and boy was it hot! So we called up the boys as NAPA they said to bring it down and they'd bench-test it.

Before we left we checked the keyswitch to make sure that that wasn't the problem. We disconnected the lead to the starter and reconnected the battery. 12V at the terminals. Headlights worked all the time, fan and turn signals only worked while the key was in the on position, and I cycled the key back and forth to make sure. So we're pretty sure that it's not the keyswitch.

Took the starter to NAPA and it tested OK, taking around 10 V at spinup, and it spun up fine. Tested old starter, which they still had, and it tested OK too. Took just under 11 V to spin up, and even though it was a little slower it still seemed okay. That's as far as we got tonight, and we're left scratching our heads...any ideas? At least it turned out okay for now...the saga continues...

We're thinking to test each wire to the starter (there are three: lead from + battery to solenoid is at 12 o'clock, from + side of coil is at 3 o'clock, from ignition is at 9 o'clock) individually to check the voltage for the appropriate key positions. Then we'll re-hook up the old starter (we bought it back to check it out) and see what happens. If it works okay then we'll try the new starter again and cross our fingers...other than that who knows.

 

[IDave]

If there was power going to the starter when the key was on, but not in the "start" position, you may have a something wrong in your ignition switch.

First thing I'd find out is if that wire, Black with a White stripe, is "hot" (you can use a test light) when the key is at "ignition" (or acc, for that matter).

 

[Romer]

Is there a ground strap from the starter to a lug? When I had my Winch neg connected to the neg on the batt instead of the frame, it started smoking (years ago). I also had a poor ground from the Batt to the Frame and cleaned that up as well.

 

[subzali]

That was another suggestion we'll have to check out. On the bottom mount of the starter there is a wire that the mounting bolt holds in. That wire goes over to the frame. So that should ground it...

 

[Jukelemon]

You have a bad ground. This was actually discussed a few posts back. Replace BOTH the battery ground to frame AND the block (starter) ground to frame. 25.00 fix and you should be on your way.

 

[Pin_Head]

For all that writing, it still isn't clear what the problem is other than the starter and battery were smoking.

One thing is clear though: If the starter is smoking it is because it is sinking a lot of current, so it must have a good ground.

 

[Jetboy]

By the way, don't ever trust a bench test. Starters tend to have "flat" spots where they stop and will not begin to spin so on a bench under no load they spin. I have yet to see a bench load test which is what auto parts stores should have.

 

[subzali]

That's cause I don't KNOW what the problem is...the whole point of the detailed post is so that if people see we missed something they can help out...that was kinda the point I thought. I'm going to try what's been suggested and see if it avails any clues. Thanks as always for the help.

 

[Jukelemon]

Replace the grounds and report back.

 

[Pin_Head]

That's cause I don't KNOW what the problem is...the whole point of the detailed post is so that if people see we missed something they can help out...that was kinda the point I thought. I'm going to try what's been suggested and see if it avails any clues. Thanks as always for the help.

The fact that the battery and starter were smoking and the fact that the starter runs OK on the bench ins't much to go on.

The only thing that is obvious is that the starter is sinking a lot of current to make it and the battery smoke. From this, you can conclude that there is nothing wrong with your grounds. There may be a short, maybe not, but the grounds are fine.

The things I would like to know are:
Can you turn the engine with a wrench?
Does the starter motor actually run when it is installed?
How low does the voltage across the battery drop when you try to start it?
Are any of the wires getting hot and smoking? Which ones?
Does the starter motor stop when you let go of the key?
Is there a voltage on the black wire with white strip at the solenoid only when The key is at the start position?

Little details like that could be helpful, but at least you know your grounds are good or it wouldn't be smoking.

 

[Jukelemon]

I had a vehicle with a very bad ground and the starter turned fine. The fact that the starter is getting current is really not indicative of a good ground-it is indicative of a ground but not a good one.

Sub, shoot us a pic of your cables to see what condition they are in.

 

[fjwagon]

There are couple of places that actually simulate a load electroncly to check starters. Checking them on the bench is not enough sometimes....Auto zone and others should have the fancy stuff to load test them. just a suggestion.

 

[Romer]

I had a bad ground on the cable from the battery to the frame and it started smoking, your probably right, but its a good thing to check. I cleaned up the contact at the Frame and my problem went away.

At the same time I hooked the neg from the winch to the neg on the battery and it started smoking. When I moved it to the Frame, the winch worked fine

 

[Planet_X]

Both the coil wire and starter wire are switched and it sounds like you are going to verify that they do indeed go on/off at the ignition switch.
Even a starter in primo condition draws a decent amount of amps to turn the motor over, and so I wondering.
1) is the battery fully charged?
2) do the solenoid wires (coil/starter) deliver 12v?
3) is the ground return path good?

Even though it sounds like the starter is drawing amperage-witnessed by heat/smoke, remember it does not take much resistance to cause a fire-just add in time that the circuit is on.

So maybe your starter is not getting enough juice to turn over but enough to cause a fire.

So if the electrics are good, suspect mechanical: sticking starter solenoid, faulty plunger/starter motor/ faulty installation of starter.

Maybe you can use this as an excuse to get one of those Mean green gear reduction starters?

 

[subzali]

Hm, great suggestions guys! I'm not sure how far we're gonna be able to get with it tomorrow because it's bloody cold right now, but I'll try what I can. I don't really understand what is meant by turning the engine with a wrench - where do I put a wrench to try? sorry don't have a camera, I know it doesn't help.

 

[Pin_Head]

Just see if the engine isn't siezed and can turn easily. Put a 13/16 ratchet on the alternator nut, push down on the alternator belt and turn with the tranny in N. Or you can put it in gear and push it back and forth.

If the engine is siezed, it it pretty easy to understand why the starter is sinking so much current, but it doesn't explain why turning the key off doesn't stop it.

 

[honk]

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=42636

 

[Planet_X]

I have scanned a page from the Toyota manual that may assist you; it is a large file and should be copied asap, because I do not know when I will need the web space.

http://webpages.charter.net/julieray/fj-40 starter.JPG

 

[subzali]

got it, thanks. Yeah I looked for where to hand crank the engine, but do I need to fold down the bib in order to access it? BTW I don't have ANY tools that came originally, I've only had this truck since January!

 

[IDave]

I looked for where to hand crank the engine, but do I need to fold down the bib in order to access it?

Really, the easiest thing to do is to put it in gear on a flat surface and push it to see if the engine turns, like Pin_Head said. You've accomplished what you need to know.

Unless you have a hand crank, it is hard to access the harmonic balancer nut (you do that under the bib and above the frame crossmember, beneath the radiator). The other way is to use the fan belt to turn the harmonic balancer, via the alternator pulley (transmission in neutral), like he also suggested.