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- #21
Truth, right there. I even thought about cutting the body mounts off, since I was planning a body lift anyway.
Now you have me thinking thoughts.
Builds Ziplock's revival
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Now you have me thinking thoughts.
lowenbrau
SILVER Star
Isn't that exactly where you left this build? Builds - Peter's Ultimate Expo Land Cruiser Build Thread
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- #24
Damn... I wanted this to be a simple build thread, not a 'what should I do?' thread. But, what should I do.
Bruce has mentioned the 'Expo' project, which I put on hold because it needed a Shop to get built in. I got that now, and Expo is next in line for some love.
In 2014, I collected a great inventory of parts for the expo truck, many of which I will be consuming on this Ziplock revival project, as you will see.
Three of those Expo project parts are a pair of 79 series Cabs (one is a used Mine Cab, the other is a brand new take-off), and a 2x6x3/16 box steel Frame (with body mounts and engine mounts for a Cummins). I have a new Frame plan for the Expo project (2005 Dodge 3/4 ton Frame) which means the 2x6 Frame is available, and would be crazy strong for a wheeling rig.
Then I could use this Ziplock frame for the rebuild of one of the other 3 BJ74's in the fleet with a less-good frame. If I use the mine truck cab on Ziplock, I can still use the new cab on the expo project, or better yet, rebuild Ziplock's body, and build a stretched BJ74 body for the expo project... hmmm... too many options.
I do need to decide on the frame, asap, though. I am installing drivetrain this week.
Bruce has mentioned the 'Expo' project, which I put on hold because it needed a Shop to get built in. I got that now, and Expo is next in line for some love.
In 2014, I collected a great inventory of parts for the expo truck, many of which I will be consuming on this Ziplock revival project, as you will see.
Three of those Expo project parts are a pair of 79 series Cabs (one is a used Mine Cab, the other is a brand new take-off), and a 2x6x3/16 box steel Frame (with body mounts and engine mounts for a Cummins). I have a new Frame plan for the Expo project (2005 Dodge 3/4 ton Frame) which means the 2x6 Frame is available, and would be crazy strong for a wheeling rig.
Then I could use this Ziplock frame for the rebuild of one of the other 3 BJ74's in the fleet with a less-good frame. If I use the mine truck cab on Ziplock, I can still use the new cab on the expo project, or better yet, rebuild Ziplock's body, and build a stretched BJ74 body for the expo project... hmmm... too many options.
I do need to decide on the frame, asap, though. I am installing drivetrain this week.
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Sorry for throwing a wrench in the plan 
2x6 is crazy strong but also significantly heavier...
2x6 is crazy strong but also significantly heavier...
There was a 6.7L cummins in that project at the time, I think the straight 2x6 frame was insufficient for that motor.Sorry for throwing a wrench in the plan
2x6 is crazy strong but also significantly heavier...
I think the straight frame rails would really only extend from the motor mounts to the back of the front seats. The frame will have to be higher in the front to clear the 3 link in front of the motor, and the frame rails narrowed in the back to clear the 4link and ORIs or coil-overs.
What's your goal here Peter? Is this a whiz-bang ultimate wheeler truck? Or a get it together quickly wheeler truck to get you on the trail while you take your time with the whiz-bang expo? Do your 61 and Shaker fill needs if this one takes time?
I may be assuming more than is warranted, but I'm thinking you had a defined goal and timeline until a week or 10 days ago, as I did with the next push on my 55. With that out of the way, what tool in your cruiser toolbox will this truck be that sets it apart from your current and project trucks? What givens are you building to (42" tires, 13BT, h55F, doubler, light weight for wheeling prowess vs strong and heavy...)?
Not expecting that you have a road map laid out, but it sounds like scope creep could come to play here with wide open possibility.
Afterthought - Maybe whiz-bang isn't a good term for me to use when talking about a turbo diesel rig.
Continued whizzing with no bang is preferred I suppose.
I may be assuming more than is warranted, but I'm thinking you had a defined goal and timeline until a week or 10 days ago, as I did with the next push on my 55. With that out of the way, what tool in your cruiser toolbox will this truck be that sets it apart from your current and project trucks? What givens are you building to (42" tires, 13BT, h55F, doubler, light weight for wheeling prowess vs strong and heavy...)?
Not expecting that you have a road map laid out, but it sounds like scope creep could come to play here with wide open possibility.
Afterthought - Maybe whiz-bang isn't a good term for me to use when talking about a turbo diesel rig.
Continued whizzing with no bang is preferred I suppose.
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arnott1t
SILVER Star
Ya I think keep your frame. It has handy bends and tweaks to make suspension more easier to fit and stuff. Keep bj74 body with a few kinks ironed out. Stay the course. Plus 16 hours of grinding and blasting will make this super fun to use as a frame with it nice and clean...
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- #29
I want to have a Truck that is good at off-roading, and tolerable at on-roading. Super strong driveline so I can hit obstacles hard with low risk of breakage. I want it to have an inside, for winter & rainy wheeling, where I can store gear inside. I want it to have functional doors, and not be a buggy that has to be entered through the windows. I want it to still be recognizable as a 74 series. I want to be able to drive it up to 4 hours on the highway to get to the local off-roading areas/events.
Pro's of sticking with the factory frame... serial numbers match, and it 'feels' more legit as a registered on road vehicle.
It has all 60% of the body mounts mounted 1.5" too low. Only 40% of the body mounts are in the way.
The engine mounts are great.
I may be cutting off the front of the frame to fit the front axle, as I won't need frame for steering box, or suspension. It will just need some ligthweight structure to hold the winch, tow points, body mounts and front clip. The rear frame rails are too wide to accommodate coil overs and will definitely be getting cut to be narrowed, or notched. But I also won't be mounting a spare tire on the back, and will just need light weight structure behind the coilover mounts to body mounts and rear tow points.
However, to Mano's and CruiserMatt's point, two hunks of 2x6 tube that are ~76" long and 24" apart is basically all the heavy duty frame I need. I am just 2 engine mounts and 6 body mounts away from that. But, am I just building a buggy at that point? This is not a buggy build project.
I have a few days to decide while I am getting the driveline assembled. I will need a frame to start mounting the driveline in by this coming weekend though. I may have talked myself back into sticking with the frame. Damn all of your and your ideas and suggestions. You know how gullible I am.
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- #30
I was dark for a while working on a secret part of the project. But, it looks like it's going to work, so I am ready to unveil it. I believe this may be the worlds first 13B-T : ZF S5-42 : Atlas 4 speed drive train!
This is the transmission. It's out of a 1988 F-somethine with the 7.3 diesel. 4.14:1 1st 0.76 OD. Aluminum case with integrated bell housing. I was going to use it on my long forgotten 'Expo' project.
First I had to see if this was even possible. Some plexi glass was used to template the engine and transmission, to make sure I did not have any collisions between mounting holes. With the ZF, the starter moves to the starboard side. Some of the mounting flange on the block and two mounting holes interfere where the new starter needs to go. I decided I could trim the flange on the block, abandon one hole, and I could move down the upper hole on the lower bell housing brace. I decided that was acceptable and to proceed to the next stage.
Plan A was to use the stock flywheel, a 2F clutch disk (with a 10 spline input, like the ZF), and stock 13BT pressure plate. I had a tester 2F clutch disk, but alas, the ZF input is a much larger 10 spline.
Plan B: I had this transmission mounted to a 2005 Cummins 5.9 ISB engine for my expo project. I bought a custom South Bend clutch and flywheel to mount the transmission, as well as a 'Destroked' adapter plate. I took measurements off that, and came up with a plan.
-Use the southbend clutch and flywheel.
-Build an adapter out of 1.25" aluminum plate.
-Build a custom crank adapter to mate the cummins flywheel to the 13BT clutch.
This gets me to a 15" clutch disk, up from the 13" 13BT clutch.
Next problem. It's not possible to buy 1.25" aluminum plate in Calgary. Two places volunteered to 'Bring some in' 2 weeks out for 5-$600. I paid $795 for the destroked adapter, and it's already build for the ZF side. I checked it against the plexiglass, and no conflict between any of the Cummins holes and the 13BT holes!. It will work.
Plan C... Since I already owned it, and I have already used the tranny clutch flywheel and starter, I may as well use that adapter plate too! I took it to a machine shop, and had the Cummins side of the shaved off. (My hobby-scale mill is not up to that task).
Then I pieced together the parts for the 13BT side out of 3/8 plate. <Note the 3D printed Crank/Flywheel adapter prototype>
This is the transmission. It's out of a 1988 F-somethine with the 7.3 diesel. 4.14:1 1st 0.76 OD. Aluminum case with integrated bell housing. I was going to use it on my long forgotten 'Expo' project.
First I had to see if this was even possible. Some plexi glass was used to template the engine and transmission, to make sure I did not have any collisions between mounting holes. With the ZF, the starter moves to the starboard side. Some of the mounting flange on the block and two mounting holes interfere where the new starter needs to go. I decided I could trim the flange on the block, abandon one hole, and I could move down the upper hole on the lower bell housing brace. I decided that was acceptable and to proceed to the next stage.
Plan A was to use the stock flywheel, a 2F clutch disk (with a 10 spline input, like the ZF), and stock 13BT pressure plate. I had a tester 2F clutch disk, but alas, the ZF input is a much larger 10 spline.
Plan B: I had this transmission mounted to a 2005 Cummins 5.9 ISB engine for my expo project. I bought a custom South Bend clutch and flywheel to mount the transmission, as well as a 'Destroked' adapter plate. I took measurements off that, and came up with a plan.
-Use the southbend clutch and flywheel.
-Build an adapter out of 1.25" aluminum plate.
-Build a custom crank adapter to mate the cummins flywheel to the 13BT clutch.
This gets me to a 15" clutch disk, up from the 13" 13BT clutch.
Next problem. It's not possible to buy 1.25" aluminum plate in Calgary. Two places volunteered to 'Bring some in' 2 weeks out for 5-$600. I paid $795 for the destroked adapter, and it's already build for the ZF side. I checked it against the plexiglass, and no conflict between any of the Cummins holes and the 13BT holes!. It will work.
Plan C... Since I already owned it, and I have already used the tranny clutch flywheel and starter, I may as well use that adapter plate too! I took it to a machine shop, and had the Cummins side of the shaved off. (My hobby-scale mill is not up to that task).
Then I pieced together the parts for the 13BT side out of 3/8 plate. <Note the 3D printed Crank/Flywheel adapter prototype>
- Thread starter
- #31
In the mean time, I did some 3D modelling in Fusion 360, and discovered that there was no way the 8 hole on the Cummins flywheel would miss the 6 holes on the 13BT crank adapter. So I had to weld up the 8 old holes, and re-drill 6 new holes to match the new crank adapter. This caused a lot of drama. 2 of the new holes had to be re-drilled through parts of the welded up holes. It was VERY difficult drilling through a combination of cast iron/weld. ARG. after trying all the options... I eventually put a carbide burr bit into the drill press. If I didn't already have that flywheel, I would recommend just getting a custom one made!
@shaker 3D printed a test version of the Crank adapter, as well as a jig to align the ZF adapter plate to the crank of the 13BT.
With the 3D jig holding the two halves concentric, I welded the two parts of the adapters together into 1 adapter. Note the countersunk holes on the back fo the adapter... those are where the Destroked adapter would normally have mounted to the Cummins. I filled in some of the holes with Weld to keep outside debris out.
This is the 13BT side of the adapter. After welding, but before I finished through drilling the 13BT mounting holes.
Moving on.... I machined the crank adapter on my lathe out of hot rolled steel. I have it acurately modelled, I will probably have one professionally made out of 4140 chromolly. But this will be good to get the project moving and even for a few test runs. Because it's hot rolled stock, I quickly stripped the threads in one hole, so I have put helicoil inserts into all the threaded holes. It's probably stong enough, but I still think I should get a proper one made.
I also had to machine away part of the block, loosing one mounting hole where the new starter goes. I also had to modify the starboard side lower bell housing brace to move the upper mounting hole down to clear the starter. Note, I later welded in some flat bar to fill in the hole where I trimmed the flange on the block. You can also see how cut out and lowered the upper mounting hole on the bell housing brace. Starter fits in there just fine. Note, the starter is from a 6.0L Ford Powerstroke.
@shaker 3D printed a test version of the Crank adapter, as well as a jig to align the ZF adapter plate to the crank of the 13BT.
With the 3D jig holding the two halves concentric, I welded the two parts of the adapters together into 1 adapter. Note the countersunk holes on the back fo the adapter... those are where the Destroked adapter would normally have mounted to the Cummins. I filled in some of the holes with Weld to keep outside debris out.
This is the 13BT side of the adapter. After welding, but before I finished through drilling the 13BT mounting holes.
Moving on.... I machined the crank adapter on my lathe out of hot rolled steel. I have it acurately modelled, I will probably have one professionally made out of 4140 chromolly. But this will be good to get the project moving and even for a few test runs. Because it's hot rolled stock, I quickly stripped the threads in one hole, so I have put helicoil inserts into all the threaded holes. It's probably stong enough, but I still think I should get a proper one made.
I also had to machine away part of the block, loosing one mounting hole where the new starter goes. I also had to modify the starboard side lower bell housing brace to move the upper mounting hole down to clear the starter. Note, I later welded in some flat bar to fill in the hole where I trimmed the flange on the block. You can also see how cut out and lowered the upper mounting hole on the bell housing brace. Starter fits in there just fine. Note, the starter is from a 6.0L Ford Powerstroke.
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- Thread starter
- #32
Final Starter Alignment (Before welding the plates together)
Boring counter sink holes so I can mount the plate to the block with grade 12.9 socket head cap screws.
Then put it all together. Checked the clywheel for concenticity (0.04mm That's great) and Run out (0.25mm meh... not great, was hoping for 1/2 that - we will see how this works out; another reason to get the crank to flywheel adapter professionally made).
Welded up and mounted, with crank to flywheel adapter. Ready for flywheel.
Is this the first ever ZF-S5 42 mounted to a 13BT?
Boring counter sink holes so I can mount the plate to the block with grade 12.9 socket head cap screws.
Then put it all together. Checked the clywheel for concenticity (0.04mm That's great) and Run out (0.25mm meh... not great, was hoping for 1/2 that - we will see how this works out; another reason to get the crank to flywheel adapter professionally made).
Welded up and mounted, with crank to flywheel adapter. Ready for flywheel.
Is this the first ever ZF-S5 42 mounted to a 13BT?
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- Thread starter
- #33
Did a full dress rehersal, Including the starter. Several problems:
-The starter was too deep, and hitting the flywheel.
- It was also to close to the flywheel and would not engage/retract properly.
- The whole contraption bound up and I could not turn the engine when the transmission was bolted on.
I had to do some fine tuning. I decided to abandon the factory dowel pins on the 13BT side, oval out the mounting holes so I could shimmy the starter further away from the flywheel. Total move was about 0.8mm and that was enough to fix the gear engagment. With the new setting set, I drilled new dowel pins into the 13BT block to fix the position.
I also had to shim the starter forwards , so I welded in some aluminim flat bar, then milled it down to the right thickness on my mill. That fixed the starter, but it consumed most of 2 weeks with problem solving, deep thought and fiddling.
The clutch was pressed into a reinforcing rib inside the bell housing of the transmission, so I had to trim that.
<It was a frustrating time with little progress... I did not take photo's in my time of despair>
After all the fiddling, with full dress rehersal with clutch in and starter on, the engine finally turns over smoothly by hand, and the starter engages and runs smoothly. Hurray. Put that Atlas on, and drop it in the frame. Success!
-The starter was too deep, and hitting the flywheel.
- It was also to close to the flywheel and would not engage/retract properly.
- The whole contraption bound up and I could not turn the engine when the transmission was bolted on.
I had to do some fine tuning. I decided to abandon the factory dowel pins on the 13BT side, oval out the mounting holes so I could shimmy the starter further away from the flywheel. Total move was about 0.8mm and that was enough to fix the gear engagment. With the new setting set, I drilled new dowel pins into the 13BT block to fix the position.
I also had to shim the starter forwards , so I welded in some aluminim flat bar, then milled it down to the right thickness on my mill. That fixed the starter, but it consumed most of 2 weeks with problem solving, deep thought and fiddling.
The clutch was pressed into a reinforcing rib inside the bell housing of the transmission, so I had to trim that.
<It was a frustrating time with little progress... I did not take photo's in my time of despair>
After all the fiddling, with full dress rehersal with clutch in and starter on, the engine finally turns over smoothly by hand, and the starter engages and runs smoothly. Hurray. Put that Atlas on, and drop it in the frame. Success!
AussieHJCruza
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Subscribed, this should be interesting.
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Very cool job on the adapter. 0.25mm of flywheel runout may be a touch high but I don't think it will be a problem. Did you check runout on the actual crank mounting surface, and the surface of your crank adapter?
Certainly the first 13bt/Zf5 combination out there.
Certainly the first 13bt/Zf5 combination out there.
lowenbrau
SILVER Star
That seemed like more work than expected but that combo should outlast modern civilization. Are you going to modify the starter to 24volts or finally build a truck that needs no batteries and add a spring starter?
- Thread starter
- #38
I am nearing the point of having to make a voltage decision this project.
Why to go 12V....
-Starter is already 12V.
-With a 12V alternator, I could make enough amps to run electric fans, electric water pump, etc.
-I can abandon the need for battery equalizer and 3rd battery for all the 12V accessories.
Why to stay 24V
-I have a cool 24V Aisin low profile winch for this truck.
-Easy to run my 24V welder
-All those 24V vacuum solenoids, especially the engine shut down one.
-There is no 12V pre-heater grid (but I may remove this and just use Webasto heat for starting)
-No need to replace all the things like wiper motors, washer pumps, dash lights, headlight/flasher/fuel control/air conditioning control modules.
Why to go 12V....
-Starter is already 12V.
-With a 12V alternator, I could make enough amps to run electric fans, electric water pump, etc.
-I can abandon the need for battery equalizer and 3rd battery for all the 12V accessories.
Why to stay 24V
-I have a cool 24V Aisin low profile winch for this truck.
-Easy to run my 24V welder
-All those 24V vacuum solenoids, especially the engine shut down one.
-There is no 12V pre-heater grid (but I may remove this and just use Webasto heat for starting)
-No need to replace all the things like wiper motors, washer pumps, dash lights, headlight/flasher/fuel control/air conditioning control modules.
arnott1t
SILVER Star
I think the voltage conversion is added complexity to an already reliable system. All those details would be tricky. adding a second 12V alt might be simpler than the other options. Electric fans and electric water pump?? unless space is the limiting factor I think the mechanical variants are more reliable and effective in those jobs.
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- #40
I sure suck at build threads. I took the summer off, but have been back at this project in Ernest since October.
It's now got a mock-up suspension, just enough of custom axles to have the wheels and tires on it, and I am testing the body to chassis fit to finalize axle placement, body lift, and body cut.
A few specs: Custom build 14Bolt axles front and rear. WMS = 63".
Wheels are Hummer H2 customized into beadlocks.
Tires are Iroc 42/14.50/17's Bias.
Total width is ~78". I just bought an enclosed race trailer, and I have this narrow to easily fit inside the trailer.
Wheelbase is currently ~116"
Approach angle ~90. Departure ~80ish.
Waiting on Radflo Coilover shocks to really finalize the chassis build, but there is lots to do while I am waiting. Almost EVERYTHING is being modified or customized.
Side profile, at max compression.
![IMG_0646[1].JPG](https://forum.ih8mud.com/attachments/img_0646-1-jpg.2563724/ "IMG_0646[1].JPG")
Ride height, showing Stick out of the tires.
![IMG_0663[1].JPG](https://forum.ih8mud.com/attachments/img_0663-1-jpg.2563721/ "IMG_0663[1].JPG")
Frankly, I was surprised to discover I could achieve maximum articulation with these 42's with no rubbing at all!
![IMG_0653[1].JPG](https://forum.ih8mud.com/attachments/img_0653-1-jpg.2563723/ "IMG_0653[1].JPG")
It's now got a mock-up suspension, just enough of custom axles to have the wheels and tires on it, and I am testing the body to chassis fit to finalize axle placement, body lift, and body cut.
A few specs: Custom build 14Bolt axles front and rear. WMS = 63".
Wheels are Hummer H2 customized into beadlocks.
Tires are Iroc 42/14.50/17's Bias.
Total width is ~78". I just bought an enclosed race trailer, and I have this narrow to easily fit inside the trailer.
Wheelbase is currently ~116"
Approach angle ~90. Departure ~80ish.
Waiting on Radflo Coilover shocks to really finalize the chassis build, but there is lots to do while I am waiting. Almost EVERYTHING is being modified or customized.
Side profile, at max compression.
Ride height, showing Stick out of the tires.
Frankly, I was surprised to discover I could achieve maximum articulation with these 42's with no rubbing at all!