Zddp additives?

[74FJ40newbie]

Recently purchased a 1974 FJ40 with an F155 engine. Can't figure out if this is considered a flat tappet engine, and in need of an zddp additive when changing the oil? Plan to change oil for the first time, and need guidance on best oil/ additive combination?

 

[devo]

Your heading down the lubrication worm hole.

Hold on!!!!!







devo

 

[devo]

1980 FJ40 2F- ZDDP ppm question. Did you use the Search option here on Mud?

After reading a ton about oil/lubrications I gave up on ZDDP.
Amsoil sells an oil loaded with ZDDP but is pricey when you need 9 quarts for an oil change.

What I figured is that motor oils back then were not as good of a lubricator as motor oils are today with all of the additives. So, I use a good motor that’s really slippery and figure my flat tappets have nice slippery coating on them.

You can have a great conversation if you call oil tech at Amsoil!



devo

 

[SteveH]

Many folks run diesel engine oil (CJ-4 rated, not CK-4) and in weights of either 10w-30 or 15w-40. Lots of zinc and phosphorous in CJ-4 oil, not so much in the newer CK-4 oils (since newer diesels have cats on them). This is an economical way to get oil with zinc.

I might run a ZDDP additive if I had confidence that they had what I needed or were price-competitive.

 

[John in Utah]

Lots of zinc and phosphorous in CJ-4 oil, not so much in the newer CK-4 oils (since newer diesels have cats on them).

What’s your source for that info? From what I can find CK-4 Rotella has more phosphorus and zinc than CJ-4.
PETROLEUM QUALITY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA TEST PROGRAM

CJ-4 TBN- 9.4 Calcium 2321 Phosphorus 965 Zinc 1098 Boron 37

CK-4 TBN- 10.27 Calcium 2295 Phosphorus 1080 Zinc 1203 Boron 207

Shell on their website claim CK-4 is a direct replacement to CJ-4.
What is PC-11? What You Need to Know About PC-11, CK-4, and FA-4 Diesel Engine Oil

Regardless, you can’t point only to zinc content in an oil and equate that to wear protection. More reading (from amsoil this time)...The Debate Over Reduced ZDDP and Wear Protection


Here I go down the rabbit hole

Just run a conventional diesel oil if it helps you sleep at night

 

[Spike Strip]

Yes, antique flat-tappet engine.

You need proper zinc levels to avoid excessive cam, valve-train wear.

I use Lucas Hot Rod oil as it has the proper levels. Adding ZDDP is a second-best solution and has to be done at the proper concentration or you risk excessive wear - Too much ZDDP is just as bad as too little.

You want to shoot for a concentration of at least 1700 ppm.

A break-in oil will have very high levels of ZDDP but it's just that: break in only and quickly drained.

https://lucasoil.com/pdf/Zinc_Values_MotorcycleOil.pdf

 

[middlecalf]

Too much ZDDP is just as bad as too little.

You want to shoot for a concentration of at least 1700 ppm.

What’s the upper limit?

 

[1911]

What I figured is that motor oils back then were not as good of a lubricator as motor oils are today with all of the additives.

In general you would be correct, but for the fact that lubricating oil refiners have been forced to steadily reduce the amount of zinc and phosphorous in motor oils over the years, because these elements are hard on catalytic converters, and very few people are still driving vehicles with flat-tappet engines.

 

[Spike Strip]

What’s the upper limit?

Don't know, but it depends on the additive package and the amount of Moly as moly enhances the lubricity of ZDDP.

I just try and stick with the levels that were common when these engines were new, around 1700- 2500, although at the time moly was not a common additive as it is now, in something like Rotella T6. It's all very confusing.

When you read on the oil bottles/websites that an oil is backwards-compatible or a direct replacement for earlier spec oils it's because some of the zddp has been replaced with moly.

This is a raging discussion and has been beaten to death on every old-car forum in the world.

 

[SteveH]

At the risk of boring the OP to death: The new CK spec applies specifically to Shell T5 and T6 Rotella, per this Shell FAQ statement:

• Will the new FA-4 specification only apply to T5 and T6?
  The FA-4 specification will only apply to Shell ROTELLA® T5 Synthetic Blend Technology heavy duty engine oil and Shell ROTELLA® T6 Full Synthetic heavy duty engine.

This means the T4 spec you mentioned below shouldn't have changed (and pretty much didn't). The new CK-4 Rotella T6 I use in my Ford 7.3 PowerStroke (IH) diesel no longer has near as much zinc, etc., so I bought up some older CJ4-spec oil and will use that until I run out. Ford got a big wedgie over the CK-4 spec and would not back its use in any Ford diesel until just recently.

Not meaning to start an oil war in this thread. The whole topic is more confusing than modern antifreeze, fer crying out loud. Good reading on the oil spec here: 2017_04 - April 2017 - LNG


Steve

What’s your source for that info? From what I can find CK-4 Rotella has more phosphorus and zinc than CJ-4.
PETROLEUM QUALITY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA TEST PROGRAM

CJ-4 TBN- 9.4 Calcium 2321 Phosphorus 965 Zinc 1098 Boron 37

CK-4 TBN- 10.27 Calcium 2295 Phosphorus 1080 Zinc 1203 Boron 207

Shell on their website claim CK-4 is a direct replacement to CJ-4.
What is PC-11? What You Need to Know About PC-11, CK-4, and FA-4 Diesel Engine Oil



Here I go down the rabbit hole

Just run a conventional diesel oil if it helps you sleep at night

 

[John in Utah]

At the risk of boring the OP to death: The new CK spec applies specifically to Shell T5 and T6 Rotella, per this Shell FAQ statement:

• Will the new FA-4 specification only apply to T5 and T6?
  The FA-4 specification will only apply to Shell ROTELLA® T5 Synthetic Blend Technology heavy duty engine oil and Shell ROTELLA® T6 Full Synthetic heavy duty engine.

This means the T4 spec you mentioned below shouldn't have changed (and pretty much didn't). The new CK-4 Rotella T6 I use in my Ford 7.3 PowerStroke (IH) diesel no longer has near as much zinc, etc., so I bought up some older CJ4-spec oil and will use that until I run out. Ford got a big wedgie over the CK-4 spec and would not back its use in any Ford diesel until just recently.

Not meaning to start an oil war in this thread. The whole topic is more confusing than modern antifreeze, fer crying out loud. Good reading on the oil spec here: 2017_04 - April 2017 - LNG


Steve

Huh? FA-4 is not CK-4, they are different classifications.

The values I posted are for Rotella, both CK-4 and CJ-4.

Rotella CJ-4: http://www.pqiamerica.com/June 2014/shellrotellatT51030.htm
Rotella CK-4:
PETROLEUM QUALITY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA TEST PROGRAM

Sorry I don’t mean to start a big oil discussion (again), but you keep claiming there is less zinc and phosphorous in CK-4 oil and that’s just not what the data shows.

 

[Spike Strip]

Well, I'll say it again because I think it's the most important:

All these additives get consumed over the life of the oil, so if you're starting with a bare min, say 1200 ppm zddp, you will quickly deplete the additive to the level that causes increased wear for a flat-tappet motor, that's why something like 1700 ppm or higher is sufficient for the life of the oil if you're changing at the 3-5K miles.

 

[Aloha Jen]

I just keep it simple and stick with coconut oil.

 

[DesertFJ40]

The Rotella CJ-4 Has gone down in Zddp in the last year, according to PQIA

As of 3/30/2017:
1203 ppm of Zinc

Current 6/26/2018
1070 ppm of Zinc

I'm currently using Vavoline 15-w40 with no issues. Its rated zinc is:

Vavoline CJ-4 6/26/2018:
1233 ppm of Zinc

I read countless hours about what additives to use to boost the zinc content in our oils. Apparently, the "miracle" zinc bottles hardly increase the PPM in the oil and mainly lower its viscosity. So adding a bottle of "miracle" zinc into 15w40 oil will only make it as thick as 20w50 oil (or at least close to) and do little to nothing in adding zinc.

 

[Spike Strip]

I just keep it simple and stick with coconut oil.

As long as its got the right additive pkg, you're good

 

[emac]

I think valvoline VR1 racing has 1300ppm. That is what I run in my flat tappot 351W and the 40.

 

[devo]

@74FJ40newbie

Do you see how you created a lubrication worm hole!

There are oil and lubrication worm holes by the hundreds on Mud for every spot on every series of LandCruiser that require an oil or a stiff lubricant. When you have all day, have fun and do a search on the subject.

Although I must admit some new and up to date info was shared on this thread.

Please let us know if this information is helpful and what direction your going to go with your choice of motor oil.



This kind of info is why Mud Rocks!

PS: and if your new to Mud, welcome!






devo

 

[rrv333]

In general you would be correct, but for the fact that lubricating oil refiners have been forced to steadily reduce the amount of zinc and phosphorous in motor oils over the years, because these elements are hard on catalytic converters, and very few people are still driving vehicles with flat-tappet engines.

Special people drive flat-tappets

 

[cruiserboy14]

The world may never know.....

 

[Kleatus]

I run Schaeffer 708 in my 62 and it seems to like it just fine. It's marketed as a "racing oil" and as appropriate for flat tappet engines. Here's some numbers with 4200 miles on this oil, showing 2057 ppm zinc. I was advised 8-10k change intervals would be fine. This was back in March, I ran that oil 7500 miles and and am about due again at 409k and change. Current oil saw all the dusty roads of SAS2 and 3000 miles mostly at 3000 rpm back and forth to get there, might be interesting to see another sample on this one..