Your Thoughts on the LC 250? (3 Viewers)
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That is certainly a true statement and one data point in the different political/economic systems between most of Europe and the US. The best way I've come up with describing our system to my European colleagues is that "you aren't insulated from your bad choices in the USA"
. I'm not saying one is better or worse, my point is that there are impediments to buying expensive vehicles on that side of the pond. FWIW, they were quite impressed with the pictures of my GX that I showed them recently. Lifted V8 luxury SUVs aren't really a thing over there. I'm glad we're able to have them and use them here.
I somehow don’t see that getting ill is the result of a bad choice, it’s kind of a function of being alive. And as far as having children who need schooling? Hmm you may have a point there.That is certainly a true statement and one data point in the different political/economic systems between most of Europe and the US. The best way I've come up with describing our system to my European colleagues is that "you aren't insulated from your bad choices in the USA"
FWIW, they were quite impressed with the pictures of my GX that I showed them recently. Lifted V8 luxury SUVs aren't really a thing over there. I'm glad we're able to have them and use them here.
But to your description about insulation, it really depends from country to country as you say. I have lived almost all my life in France and Italy with multi-year stints in Germany and Switzerland. These countries are full bore capitalist systems with a socialist-light topping. We call it “responsible capitalism” though it is not as responsible and insulating as you might think.
With respect to expensive cars, sit on a terrace Place de Trocadero in Paris and see what drives by. The place is teeming with Range Rovers despite their cost, impossible taxes on them, the new enhanced SUV parking tax, fuel expense, and the raging war on SUVs and diesel being spearheaded by our mayor! And we have a thriving 4x4 community in France and Italy, and you can see all manner of lifted trucks as of today but for how long? The sport is under attack from all sides.
And that probably explains why Toyota is reticent about selling the 300, 70 or 4Runner in the EU. The old Prado did not sell very well. The new 250 shows promise but the timing is not great for it unless it captures some kind of SUV-chic like the Range Rover. (There, we made it back to the subject of this thread.)
Definitely agree that small cars make a lot more sense in Europe. Streets are narrow, parking is limited, parking is small, most people live in multifamily housing, distances are small so you're not driving long distances in the same way. Driving an American full size truck or SUV would be terrible. I hated driving my F250 (crew cab long bed) even in western USA cities that have giant roads and parking spots. My Tundra is almost as bad, only difference is that it's about 4 feet shorter. In my experience a Rav4 size vehicle is about the ideal size for most American cities to get around easily and park in most places. I have an RX350 that's a bit wider than a Rav4 and it's still easy enough. But I can get around just fine in my Tundra. It's just not ideal, especially in most city centers. I avoid driving it there if I can. If I lived in almost any city in Europe I would either have an econobox or not own a car unless I lived on a USA military base or something similar where I'd have more space, parking, and ease of ownership.
Almost none of the popular European cars are available in the USA. The most popular segment is supermini and I don't think there are any supermini cars left in the USA. Smart car didn't do well. Fiat 500 sold a while, but never really took off and IIRC is now gone. I can't think of anything else on the market that is smaller than subcompact. Even if we wanted to buy the popular european models we cant.
Something I've always found a bit whimsical in Paris is the yellow vests burning Smart Cars. I don't know why, but it just seems so comical to me. I know it's someone's car and it's surely frustrating for the owner. But the tiny car upside down on fire just strikes an odd humor in my mind.
You presume that government is a good/efficient and appropriate steward of money and provider of services when if anything its the opposite
Competition breeds better quality/$$$ products/services and outcomes
Monopolies result in inefficiency, poor products/services and outcomes.
Sorry to dig on our neighbors to the north for an example but look at how regularly canadian politicians/wealthy and normal folks come to the US for diagnostic/other medical services that are avail in days/weeks in US vs having to wait YEARS for rationed services in the canadian gov system.
Same is true for vehicles
absent the decades long bias of the EPA against diesel and some of our other transportation departments against other regulations, Toyota and others would have brought general market versions of a wide variety of vehicles to the US market like they've done throughout the middle east and europe over the last 30 years.
EDIT: Forgive the silly but instructive example.....but could you imagine what a central government iteration of iTunes would look like vs what Apple/Private industry created?
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Jetboy, yes, that is why I am keen to see this Landcruiser FJ. I think it would sell well in Europe. I would buy one.
You don’t need a car in most EU city centers really and my A3 got sent to the country because I rarely used it. People tend to use their cars on the weekends. I take the train.
I don’t know why people burn cars at a drop of a hat in France. Every New Years there are hundreds of cars burnt. Every protest by any group winds up cooking Renaults. We have a problem Houston.
Health insurance is available to every American - along with (in our current economy) - jobs that pay more than a living wage. We have more openings for high paying jobs than there are people to work them. Lots of opportunities as well to save for college and get scholarships - 529 plans, etc. All of these programs exist, but they aren't mandatory and participation is not compulsory.
Again each system has it's plusses and minuses. Working in my field here in the USA, I have substantially more disposable income than I would in Europe - even with paying for health insurance, 401Ks, Roth IRAs, 529 plans, etc. I'm thankful for that as I still have income left over to dump into my GX
. But, one of those month-long summer vacations would be pretty darn nice.I think we will have to agree to agree. I would much rather pay a private company for my health insurance than be forced to hand the money over to a government. But in either case, paying for health insurance is mandatory in the sense that you cannot responsibly be without it. I suspect someone winds up paying for those who do not have it.Health insurance is available to every American - along with (in our current economy) - jobs that pay more than a living wage. We have more openings for high paying jobs than there are people to work them. Lots of opportunities as well to save for college and get scholarships - 529 plans, etc. All of these programs exist, but they aren't mandatory and participation is not compulsory.
Again each system has it's plusses and minuses. Working in my field here in the USA, I have substantially more disposable income than I would in Europe - even with paying for health insurance, 401Ks, Roth IRAs, 529 plans, etc. I'm thankful for that as I still have income left over to dump into my GX
The Euro system is actually more complicated than you think. The health insurance you pay through taxes in France gets you care in a public hospital only. If you want to go to the many top level private clinics and hospitals to see the best doctors, you have to have “supplemental private health insurance.” That’s the double dip I have to pay. But if I add what is taken from my taxes and what I have to pay in private insurance, it winds up being about what an average American has to pay for private health insurance (depending if they are employed, what plan is offered etc.) So from a practical point of view, it winds up costing the same.
While the costs are the same, the level of care is not. In France we say our medical system is the best in the world “as long as you do not get sick.” That’s because our system is strong in preventative medicine and not as strong in curative. Germany and Switzerland are strong in both. Italy is weak in both.
And we have people flying into France from all over the world to get free health care, we call it “medical tourism.” Even Americans! It is going to be the death of us but the government refuses to stop it and guess who pays?
It's six weeks in France, plus all the other holidays and ski vacation in Winter. A lot of French people are on vacation for over two months of the year. But that get's into the "quality of life" discussion...and that explains why we are paid less than our US counterparts, we work a lot less and are much less productive. On the flip side, we do not have the stress that translates into higher incidences of heart disease, cancer, diabetes and other maladies that shorten life expectancy for Americans. Choose your poison.
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I don't know how close that render is to any real model, but I think it looks fantastic and if it is priced correctly (IMO that's about $32-45k for market range), it'll sell like crazy. I do wish they'd drop the top on at least one of the BOF models. And TBH it's not really the roof that I want to take off. I want quick release door hinges mostly. Alas Toyota will never be so bold.
But I still really like the concept here.
Yes, the pictures are in house from bestcarweb.jp but they are pretty tight with Toyota so they may have some insight. I think it looks great and outfitted the way you suggest would make this vehicle a perfect compliment to the 250. And the starting price in Japan is quoted at 3.5M Yen ($23,000) so it could very well land in EU or N America in the price range you suggest. Toyota would sell an awful lot of these things.
*le sigh*
GTV
SILVER Star
You presume the free market has your best interests in mind.
Free market solutions are incentivized to satisfy customer demand through profit motive. Taxes and the centrally planned solutions they fund are compulsory and not based on choice. The average citizen would be better off without 15-30% of their income being stolen to pay for stuff few people want (like endless wars, a failing healthcare system, and out of control debt servicing).
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I agree! It's an exciting format.
To the powertrain haters; historically (maybe not 200-series), all Land Cruisers were underpowered. Lack of engine performance was part of the Land Cruiser DNA. They were basically tractors at heart that could drive on-road.
As for the size, yes, it's smaller than 200-series, but so were all the other Land Cruisers. Some challenge that the 250 "is not a real Land Cruiser", but no one says that about all the other small Land Cruisers from the past. Heck a 40-series is arguably the "most real" Land Cruiser of all series', but it's WAY smaller than even a 250-series, but no one challenges it's authenticity.
I feel it will be awesome, but to the nay-sayers, I think it's best to wait and see vs speculate negativity.
So, like Land Cruisers with little diffs.
joseywales
Renaissance Redneck
No great loss
Watch GTs “Carnage a Trois” for insight into French driving peculiarities. It’s time we’ll spent!
The disputes of real Land Cruiser or not have nothing to do with size. It comes down to heavier duty vs lighter duty.
Traditionally the prados were light duty, 200/100 were medium and the 70 series was heavy duty.
Unironically, yes. 99.9% of the future 250 drivers won't need the off-road capability limits provided, let alone what the good folks in this forum complain about it missing.
That didn't change. Toyota still refers to the 250 as light duty but because each generation keeps getting tougher/beefier, what is considered light duty now is definitely not the same light duty of yesteryear. Also, I consider the reference of ''light duty'' is more of ''life style vehicle'' designation. Even the most ''light duty'' LC is still more overbuilt and heavy duty than most other vehicles. However, yes if does translate to some of the mechanical aspects, that the experts will be more than happy to confirm/compare once these things reach customers.
I wouldn't call the 200/300 medium duty, I would argue in some areas it's beefier than a 70 series, though in terms of how they are used, then yes for sure, the LC 200/300 would definitely be geared towards medium duty use on average.
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haha, you should see the diff size of the Y61 Patrol diffs, makes the Prado diffs look like something out of a toy store. Now that is overbuilt. A shame everything above isn't as nicely put together as the LC.
