Winch - Front or Rear?

[Dell]

I get a kick out of some of the ideas I have seen here now.

Guys that claim they would never need a winch anywhere but on the front because they never go back, only forward... Really? Not the kind of attitude I want to be out in the back country with. But I imagine that once the keyboard and the web forum are left behind it is another song being sung anyway.

Guys that claim they never get stuck... Really? Either awful timid, awful low experience, going some pretty tame places or some sort of superman.

Guys that say they only use their winch to recover others... Doubtful, but be that as it may, this thread is about mounting a winch for self recovery. One of my buddies runs a towing company and he has never used the winch on his mil-surplus tracked rig except to recover others... so what?

Guys that jump on their soapbox and proclaim that "no one should 'wheel' alone"... Please, spare me the weekender stuff. Some of us use our vehicles to go places. Sometimes we go those places alone. When I am searching out a new route into the mountains or trying to prove one up on the ground after scouting it from the air, I may be accompanied by one or two trusted trail partners or I may be out there with just a dog. It is a common occurance. Right here in this thread there are more than a couple of us who have been traveling the back country and wilderness for decades, alone as well as in groups. And you insinuate you are in a position to tell us that it is a "bad idea"? The word clueless comes to mind.

Guys ? ( I'm only one guy)
Tho' I might guess, I'm that guy, in your nondescript reference.
ah shucks... suppose I should probably bow to your master skills, knowledge and ability.
As it would seem you're smarter and a better wheeler then I.
Let me commend you, for knowing me so well.

Sooo... do whatever it is you want...
I really could care a less about that...
or the logging roads you travel.

IMO... it's not generally a great idea to be supportive to a potential risk/hazard to folk, whom may be less prepared and/or inexperienced.
Some of the readers here, could think they qualify, on your level of knowledge, experience, ability, preparedness and understanding of the risks associated,
when taking on a solo adventure..
as was said; "not everyone is capable"
...and I'll bet, even fewer folk are with "real world" understanding of the potential risks and consequences, that can arise from simple mistakes,
solo in the back country.

safety should always be of anyone's, first priority.
especially if considering the safety and education of learning folk,
before they get in over their heads.

The percentage of folk dying out there in the sticks,
is a lot higher, when traveling solo...
then, when having backup from another person that is capable and reliable.

=================

~You remind me of the wood cutter, whom thought he was smart, careful and in control,
so he went to the wood alone, to cut down and haul wood out by himself...
all was good, until a tree, he was cutting down, landed on his leg, trapping him to the ground.

No worries tho'...
he was man enough to whittle his leg off at the knee,
with a pen knife~

Moral of the story:

Probably something that he could have avoided,
and he'd still have his leg...
had he thought to have a partner with him, as back up
in the circumstance a crisis could occur.

=================

^ yeah sure... word could be left back at home base, as to your whereabouts and intended time of return...
...tho' that's likely only good... if someone gives a s*** about you.

I'll suppose one could discount this ^ factual story,
as a life lesson, of no merit or value,
by denouncing this woodsman,
as some web slinging noobie, wannabe lumberjack.


BTW...

when I'm not web wheeling your personal web world...
I find the time, to pretend, that I can wheel as good as you.



the podium belongs to you

 

[Mark W]

Dell, You obviously do not know me or know anything about where I travel or what I doi. it's okay, doesn't affect me a bit. I don't know you, or know anything about you either. Don't need to or want to. We will never meet and I am certain I will never spend time on the trail with you. Since you have joined Mud I have run into you in a couple of threads. And I think less of you each time.
I was not really thinking about you when I wrote those comments. Really was not aiming it at you. But if the web wheeling wannabe shoe fits... go right ahead and wear it.


You can go back to pretending now... I find the ignore list rather handy. Fell free to use it yourself. Some of us would rather have a worthwhile discussion.


Mark...

 

[crushers]

is wheeling alone dangerous, of course it is.
is driving down a highway dangerous, of course it is.
is getting out of bed each morning dangerous, of course it is.

but

we weigh the risks, we take the precautions and we crawl out of bed, we eat our foods laddened with chemicals, we get into our vehicles and drive the dangerous roads to work and back each day.

off roading by one self can be as safe or as dangerous as the person behind the wheel. if that person has no or little common sense, if that person is a risk taker, if that person doesn't maintain his vehicle, if that person cares not to learn to fix his vehicle ... then that person should really sell the Cruiser and go buy a car and stay on the highway.

this goes also for group wheeling. it CAN be dangerous, it can be life threatening to both the idiot behind the wheel and now for everyone around that person. group wheeling can and does give a false sense of security. trucks break down, truck(s) get stuck, recovery gear fails, weather can change drasticly and suddenly, trails that were passable an hour earlier could be impassible now.

like i said before, some people, no matter what vehicle they are driving should NEVER leave the pavement, in a group or by themselves.

others should try and wheel, think, consider that they are wheeling alone while in a group. when they come to an obstacle, think it through, see if they agree with the conclusion of the group or whether they would have taken a different line. did the lead truck get stuck? if so, how could they have tranversed the challenge differently if they were by themselves. if so then give the new line a try and see if they make it, maybe it meant going around the mud hole or huge ruts or big rock. MAYBE it would mean turning back, are they man (or woman) enough to know their limitations and be able to accept them?

once that person feels confident then give some easier trails a try and work your way up to the harder more challenging ones. an adult knows when to call it quits and to turn around. a kid is immune to danger and will keep going till someone or something is broken.

if you are wheeling alone then make sure you have a top map and know how to use it. highlight the trail you will be taking and let someone responsible know where you are going and when to expect you back. and STICK TO THE PLAN, that sudden side excursion is not acceptable, you do the trail, you finish it, you contact your responsible buddy and let them know you are fine and if you plan on trying something different then let them know BEFORE you head down it.

Dell, when i read Mark's post, at no time did i feel he was pointing fingers at anyone in particular. i know many many people that post could fit, including me. you might be reading more into the post than need be.

to me, he was posting up his feeligns on the matter and that is all he was doing. I have not met Mark, I have not met you, i have read a lot of Marks posts over the years and he IS very knowledgeable and my buddies that have wheeled with Mark have nothing but positive reactions. I would love to wheel with Mark one day but it seems life keeps getting in the way.

 

[landroamer]

My last rig had a winch front and rear, We,(me and my family) do a lot of wheelin alone, I used the rear winch as much or more as the front, The rig I have now only has a front winch, built my own bumper, I am planning on a rear winch in the near future, Not only for getting myself unstuck, came in handy when in deep snow and the rear of the rig was sliding over the edge, hook up a side pull and off we go. We always go prepared, never know what could happen, but boy what fun.
By the way, go with a decent sized winch, I have a 9000 on the front now, will be moving it to the rear and putting a 10 or 12 on the front, Easter week end we got stuck, snow was like concrete, I have large battery cables, good power and even with a snatch block the winch would not pull us out, had to shovel any how. Which like I said was like moving concrete, once she started to move though then I could winch, but with out the winch would have been a long afternoon.
Good luck
Chad

 

[Dell]

Dell, when i read Mark's post, at no time did i feel he was pointing fingers at anyone in particular. i know many many people that post could fit, including me. you might be reading more into the post than need be.

to me, he was posting up his feeligns on the matter and that is all he was doing. I have not met Mark, I have not met you, i have read a lot of Marks posts over the years and he IS very knowledgeable and my buddies that have wheeled with Mark have nothing but positive reactions. I would love to wheel with Mark one day but it seems life keeps getting in the way.

I'm sure Mark is a nice guy, and likely knowledgeable and experienced in what he does and knows...
I didn't direct my initial comment/opinion towards him, nor anyone, specifically..
was simply my opinion formed from my personal experiences.

Mark, or anyone else that felt offense from my post...
could have simply ignored my comment and moved on.
I wasn't looking to gain acceptance or agreement with my comment or opinion.

Mark obviously felt the need to defend his mindset,
and so categorized and stereotyped others here...
of whom were not in agreement with his personal opinions or thoughts.

IMO, Mark could do better to make his point...
without stereotyping or demeaning other folk's, of their opinions or experiences in what they might know or do.
Especially if he does not know them personally.

Maybe I was perceived as arrogant, in my first posting, in this thread...
was not my intent to represent myself, as being someone better then anyone else.
I was simply stating my position and opinion, based on the facts of my experience's,
as I have formed my own opinion, of the so many unprepared folk running solo on the trails here in SoCal.
^ not saying that all solo running folk are unprepared or incompetent.
But the truth is... there are plenty

frankly I'm tired of assisting these folk... when they get themselves
into a bad situation.
And sooo... I am not a promoter of solo off road activities.

Obviously this is not everyone's experience...
But there isn't a person here whom has right to make comment directed towards me or anyone,
that our opinions are moot and that we must be web wheelin noobs,
if we don't agree or concede to another person's opinion..

and so... screw anyone whom thinks they have right to categorize, stereotype or ridicule me or anyone else,
that might have opinions, that are not in accord with their own.

Thanks for taking the time to make comment in Marks behalf...
But don't have a worry...
I don't wear my ego on my sleeve.
And tho' he may have ill feelings, of my behalf

I doubt I'll lose much sleep over it.

I've been perusing this forum since '05
though I didn't sign on until just recently...

if that designates me as a web wheeling noobie...

so it goes...


.

 

[Mark W]

Wayne where did you find 100 feet of shock absorbing rope strong enough for vehicle kinetic recovery? Or is it not stretch rope, but more akin to anchor rope?

If it is stretch rope, what is it rated at and how much did it wind up costing?

I used to have a 70 foot strap that I got as mil-surplus. No idea what it's original purpose was, but it was nice sometimes to have the extra reach. It was probably not real high strength, but I never tasked it to the extreme either.


And, yes Dell... I see your post.... But I am not gonna play your game.


Mark...

 

[daveIT]

What's your take on receiver mounted winches? The previous owner of mine fabbed up bumpers with receivers front and back, but I'm not sure how tough it would be.

 

[crushers]

Mark,
they make custom sizes for $2 or $3 a foot, it is a stretchy rope.
74,000 lb break rating 1 1/2" thick

"stretches up to 30% when in use, which greatly aids in vehicle extraction. This stretch also provides excellent shock absorption which decreases stress on the vehicle chassis. The rope is comprised of an inner core for strength and an outer cover that protects the rope from the elements. "

close to 30 years ago i bought my first used one off a buddy for $50 and it was a 75 footer, i had no idea what a great unit it was since i never had used a chain or a strap before. my first wheeling rig and my first tugg'm.
of course when you don't know what you have and are young you end up with a short piece of rope after the first year.
then i got my first strap and though WTF is this thing, when you went to pull it hit hard, not as hard as a chain but damn near.
so
i went and found a supply place in Calgary that would make me one up, and i had that one for decades. when i finally went to replace it i found out they no longer make them.
Mark, in all seriousness, they are BITCH'N. once you try this one you will never want to use a strap again. if this doesn't get you out then you have one serious stuck to contend with and i would strongly recommend a change in proceedure.

as you can tell, i love mine.

 

[Mark W]

My last rig had a winch front and rear, We,(me and my family) do a lot of wheelin alone, I used the rear winch as much or more as the front, The rig I have now only has a front winch, built my own bumper, I am planning on a rear winch in the near future, Not only for getting myself unstuck, came in handy when in deep snow and the rear of the rig was sliding over the edge, hook up a side pull and off we go. We always go prepared, never know what could happen, but boy what fun.

Another nice thing with a winch at each end is the simplicity in positioning for a pull. It is usually not that big a deal to get rig turned around to winch, But every once in a while it is a PITA.

And the following is not really an argument for a rear winch for recovering others, but it is a data point to consider.

I actually broke a birfield once in a mini-truck when it was not even running. The truck in question was being used as a winch anchor, but it could as easily have been puling with it's own winch.

We had attached to the front tow hooks for a moderate pull, and put the rig in gear to keep it from moving. I was watching the mired rig and counting on someone else to keep an eye on the min behind me. They did, but they were not as aware of how all the mechanicals of the rig worked... and this would be an easy one to overlook anyway...

The mini was sitting on tundra sod... real good traction... as we winched the front suspension compressed... lots of weight traction on the front axle.... the rig moved forward a little... I do not remember now if the engine was forced to turn over some or if it skidded. The front tires turned as it did, and would up all the way over at full lock.

Now... engine providing the resistance to movement... via the drivetrain... the birfields were loaded.. and turned to full deflection. Cracked and shattered one pretty as you please just from the load that the engine was resisting as the cable tried to pull the rig.

If I had it to do over, I would have pointed the mini the opposite way and hooked to the rear recovery points. That would have avoided the situation. If we had someone who could sit in the truck with foot on brake, it would have been a none issue. But we did not have that extra person.

So... In some situations a recovery using a rear mounted winch can be a better choice. (Note that if you are using the vehicle brakes to keep the rig from moving, parking and rear drums are not as strong resisting rearward movement as they are forward.)


Mark...

 

[Mark W]

Mark,
they make custom sizes for $2 or $3 a foot, it is a stretchy rope.
74,000 lb break rating 1 1/2" thick

"stretches up to 30% when in use, which greatly aids in vehicle extraction. This stretch also provides excellent shock absorption which decreases stress on the vehicle chassis. The rope is comprised of an inner core for strength and an outer cover that protects the rope from the elements. "

close to 30 years ago i bought my first used one off a buddy for $50 and it was a 75 footer, i had no idea what a great unit it was since i never had used a chain or a strap before. my first wheeling rig and my first tugg'm.
of course when you don't know what you have and are young you end up with a short piece of rope after the first year.
then i got my first strap and though WTF is this thing, when you went to pull it hit hard, not as hard as a chain but damn near.
so
i went and found a supply place in Calgary that would make me one up, and i had that one for decades. when i finally went to replace it i found out they no longer make them.
Mark, in all seriousness, they are BITCH'N. once you try this one you will never want to use a strap again. if this doesn't get you out then you have one serious stuck to contend with and i would strongly recommend a change in proceedure.

as you can tell, i love mine.

I have never found that as kinetic recovery strap felt too stiff to me. I HAVE made the mistake of using a strap that someone handed me that was NOT elastic! After I pulled my face out of the dash, I had some.. excited... words with him.

I could probably google search and research... but might be easier... do you have any info on what sort of/ what brand or name that rope is? I am sure i could find it in bulk if i knew what I was looking for. Most of the heavy industrial/marine stuff is not gonna have a lot of give in it.

The extra length is the largest appeal to me.

I had to go out at midnight a month or so back when one of my wife's co-workers called... he had been out searching for some nice artistic photo opportunities of the northernlights.... he assured me he was within tow strap reach of the road stuck on a snowmachine trail following a powerline easement... so I ran out in the street '80.

When I got there and saw it, I ran back to the shop and grabbed some extra straps (I only keep one 20 footer in this '80)... He was exactly 97 feet from where I was willing to take the '80. Not sure how he saw it as "about 20 feet".

A lot of times in the field we wind up winching just because to the inability to get a rig close enough to snatch.


Mark...

 

[Mark W]

What's your take on receiver mounted winches? The previous owner of mine fabbed up bumpers with receivers front and back, but I'm not sure how tough it would be.

I am not a real fan of the concept. When it being used to winch you out, it works well so long as the mount is strong. I have a receiver cradle for a 9000 pound warn that we use on the car trailer. (We had the winch not being used so we use it on the trailer until it finds it's way onto a rig).

I really do not like lugging that around. And that is just at the shop ot beside the road where I am loading a rig on the trailer.


When a winch is mounted at either end this way, it usually sticks out... a lot. This is a bad thing if you want to leave it mounted.

If you stow it in the rig instead... it takes up room and has to be secured so that it does not go flying around the interior in any sort of vehicle accident. Imaging that winch coming forward into the back of your head... or your kid's head.

If it is stowed... or even mounted at the opposite end from where you need to use it... you have to lug it out and attach it... maybe knee deep in a bog. May have to clean out receivers and power plugs. Potentially a real PITA.

I would rather have a receiver mounted winch on hand if I was stuck than not have a winch. But as i said... I am not a real fan of this approach.


Mark...

 

[daveIT]

Yeah, can't say I'm a huge fan of the concept. Gonna mess up approach and departure angles quite a bit too I reckon...

 

[Mark W]

Wayne, I got that link you sent. I guess I have seen these after all. Now that I have some info on hand to tell me a little about the type of rope used... I am gonna give Darrell a call and see if he can track something equivalent down in bulk.

I have some mil-surplus helicopter sling load rigging that is similar, but maybe even heavier. All of these that I have are only 10 feet long though.

Now that I think about it... I might try and see if I can find some elastic strap in bulk too. 100 foot of strap will stow a bit easier than 100 foot of rope.



Mark...

 

[rusty_tlc]

PTO winches also require the engine to be running... and electric winches might let you pull a full cable length before your battery dies, and then where are you besides stuck?

"Hydraulic is fine until your truck is swamped and the engine dies, then you will wish you had an electric winch. At least it will work until the battery runs out. "

It is True that Hydraulic winches have one flaw, and only one.... Most require the engine to be running. I had 2 electric winches before I converted to Hydraulic after the military, and I will never go back. The only disadvantage to the Hydraulic winches is that the do generally need the engine to be running. On the flip side, you can run hydraulic winches under load all day long and only get them hot to the touch, but you won't ever damage one. They are also waterproof and can be run under water, again, all day long. They are a Bit slow, but I have 2 speeds on both.

Honestly weight doesn't bother me. I keep it low and have the biggest tires I can stuff into my wheel-wells. I love wheeling with the Family, and I really don't see why I should have to have multiple vehicles to have a great family outing.

My rig is pretty unique in the winch setup. I can't be without power to my winches because I have an on board 5.5Hp Honda powered Hydraulic pump. I use my rig for my fabrication business and I have hydraulic tools, shears, punches, presses etc I trailer around for my business, but not on the trail/. I do tote my hydraulic pump, and yes its extra weight. But I can run my winches on either end, both ends, or pull the rear winch out and tote it to someone else's stuck rig and pull them out too. Its really not a big deal.

Obviously my setup is overkill. Thats what I wanted, and as to cost, the winches were $300-ish each (if you stay on eBay like I do anyways)

And honestly my Primary trail rig is a 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee, only because I I have 6 seats to fill, and I didn't want the size of a Land cruiser.

It sounds like a sweet set up.
BTW
If I find I need to winch all day long I probably made bigger judgment errors than the type of winch I selected. ;p

 

[Mark W]

It sounds like a sweet set up.
BTW
If I find I need to winch all day long I probably made bigger judgment errors than the type of winch I selected. ;p

Well... if you are talking recovery... yep.

But... we have an run we are making plans for at the moment that will require sinking winch anchors up the spine of a ridge and winching 8-10 rigs up about a 600 foot climb. once we are on top we can traverse a couple of miles to the other side of the high ground and work our way down the same way.

The will let us follow an abandoned "Army Telegraph Road" (horse and mule route) and open an overland connection between the Gokona River and glacier to the Chistochina drainage system and the rivers and glaciers we can access there.

So... all day? Hopefully not. But it will be some extended winching and the plan will be to get the PTO equipped rig(s) up top first to pull the others up. Most electric winches will not be happy with that kind of use.


Mark...

 

[rusty_tlc]

I use my PTO when we need a really delicate and controlled pull. Overall a lot of the rigs on our trails are not as low geared as those that spend their time in rocks. I have about 275:1, but only a couple of the other guys are anywhere near that. When we use a strap it is usually either just a quick gentle tug, or a pretty strong yank.

The winches come into play many times because a strap will not reach. Or there is no one who can get a suitable rig to where the pull needs to go. (snatching a mired wagon w/trailer using a first gen mini-truck is gonna be pointless many times...) And of course also in many cases the winch gets the nod because a strap would be too violent or too brief an input.


Mark...

A very good example of different methods for different environments/equipment, low gearing is the rule rather than the exception in our group. And a good argument against the one size fits all solution to a question.

People need to get some experience and find out what works best for what they do. reading on forums like this is a great way to get a basic understanding wheeling recovery etc. but at the end of the day each of us have our own unique situation and preferences.

 

[rusty_tlc]

Well... if you are talking recovery... yep.

But... we have an run we are making plans for at the moment that will require sinking winch anchors up the spine of a ridge and winching 8-10 rigs up about a 600 foot climb. once we are on top we can traverse a couple of miles to the other side of the high ground and work our way down the same way.

The will let us follow an abandoned "Army Telegraph Road" (horse and mule route) and open an overland connection between the Gokona River and glacier to the Chistochina drainage system and the rivers and glaciers we can access there.

So... all day? Hopefully not. But it will be some extended winching and the plan will be to get the PTO equipped rig(s) up top first to pull the others up. Most electric winches will not be happy with that kind of use.


Mark...

One of the things we find in the mining areas is old "Donkey" engines. They are basically an internal combustion engine that drives a winch. Usually they were positioned at the top of a ridge and use for exactly what you describe. Dragging equipment up to the mines and out of the mines. They are usually mounted on sledges, I imagine they would use the donkey to pull itself into position then anchor it.

It sounds like the self powered hydro system, used in a similar manner, would be a very good option in your application.

I agree an electric would suffer under that kind of sustained pulling.

 

[Mark W]

Not a bad idea. I had not considered this approach... I have a Braden PTO that I used to have mounted on my Pig. It has an official 675 feet capacity when loaded with 5/16 steel cable. So 700 should be easily doable. And we have a couple of gasoline engines in the 5-6 horsepower range.

Maybe I will look at putting together a donkey for this outing. Keep the vehicle mounted winches as backups.


Mark...

 

[crushers]

can you send me a link to this elastic strap you use? i want to give a chunk a try, maybe i have tried the wrong stuff. the sales drone told me "these straps stretch 30% of their length", well after using the rope these things felt like chains.
i might have a different view after trying the ones you use.

Wayne, I got that link you sent. I guess I have seen these after all. Now that I have some info on hand to tell me a little about the type of rope used... I am gonna give Darrell a call and see if he can track something equivalent down in bulk.

I have some mil-surplus helicopter sling load rigging that is similar, but maybe even heavier. All of these that I have are only 10 feet long though.

Now that I think about it... I might try and see if I can find some elastic strap in bulk too. 100 foot of strap will stow a bit easier than 100 foot of rope.



Mark...

 

[crushers]

sounds like a trip i could be into.
the idea of anchor points every 100 feet might still be a good idea ... just in case.

Not a bad idea. I had not considered this approach... I have a Braden PTO that I used to have mounted on my Pig. It has an official 675 feet capacity when loaded with 5/16 steel cable. So 700 should be easily doable. And we have a couple of gasoline engines in the 5-6 horsepower range.

Maybe I will look at putting together a donkey for this outing. Keep the vehicle mounted winches as backups.


Mark...