Winch - Front or Rear?

[PadgettFabrication]

I have dual 12,000 Mile Marker Hydraulic Winches, front and rear, but honestly I rarely ever use either for myself. The rear option is awesome if you EVER wheel alone, because you can pull back, rethink, rest, and move forward. The front winch option is great too. You can always go with the receiver option if you want, as it works pretty good if you are on a budget. Its really your call.

 

[crushers]

curious, you have never had a winch cable get tangled?
if the winch is in the middle of the vehicle how do you make sure it is rewinding smoothly across the drum?

Well, the way I see it is that you shouldn't need to get to the winch itself anyway.

 

[4xsteve]

I certainly did this set up primarily for the budget reasons; If funds were unlimited, I'd absolutely have dual winches. But there are some other positives: less overall weight; better weight distribution (at least for us truck guys); slightly lower CoG; weight closer to center axis (between the bumpers); less wiring than duals; and obviously, half the price. My entire set up cost less than $600 and I once pulled a full-size tractor-trailer (lightly loaded) out of some beach sand it was buried in. This was using the rear pull which, inherently, is always going to be a "double line" or "snatch-block" pull with how I have it set up.

There will always be drawbacks to most any setup unless money is not a factor. So take it all with a grain of salt and just always remember to do what YOU want to do and not what others want you to. Happy wrenching!

 

[4xsteve]

curious, you have never had a winch cable get tangled?
if the winch is in the middle of the vehicle how do you make sure it is rewinding smoothly across the drum?

Not to any point that needed messing with on the trail. If it's bound up, I'd just have another truck pull on it. I try not to ever get my fingers near a winch that's got power to it, especially if its got cable problems. I have broken cables and had cables despool before though. But I think this is all minorly unimportant if you have other trucks around... admittedly though, that sentiment changes drastically if you're alone. This would bring us to the importance of having a High-Lift for emergencies. I have been down this road too - using my High-Lift to drag my truck, painfully slowly, to a point where I could get traction or to work on it safely.

I still think it mostly just boils down to a question of money for most people. But, being in the rock crawler crowd myself, I also am very against having things "stick out" much. And if you want to have major access to your winch, its going to have to be somewhat "out there".

 

[Dell]

I only need the winch mounted to the front...

forward is where I gotta be...
backwards... don't get me anywhere.

better then two winches mounted fore/aft on one rig...
...is having a 2nd rig with a front mnt'd winch...
covering yer backside..

wheeling alone... is just a bad idea.

well... unless yer thing is to conquer a fire road or 'da mall

 

[4xsteve]

better then two winches mounted fore/aft on one rig...
...is having a 2nd rig with a front mnt'd winch...
covering yer backside..

wheeling alone... is just a bad idea.

Hell yes! Now THAT'S the best suggestion so far.

 

[crushers]

"wheeling alone ... is just a bad idea"

damn, i wish someone told me that 30 years ago. it must have been just plain good luck all those decades in the mountains, spring, summer, fall and winter ... just me, the old BJ42 and my 8274 and high-lift.

of course, some people should never leave the pavement, no matter how equiped their rig is. others, wheeling alone is just fine. i feel it depends more on the individual than a blanket statement like that one.

 

[kidglove13]

I 'll be wheeln alone this weekend with a good trusty co-pilot its technically not alone but only one rig
You cant always get a group to go with you
I am not going to let that stop me from doing something I enjoy
With a good co-pilot and using your noggin theres no reason not to wheel alone
Yes stuff does happen but that is the name of the game
You need to know your limits and stick to them
Most problems occur because of stupidity.

 

[RiverRatMatt]

For now I mostly wheel alone. I think I will go with separate front and rear winches, because like said above having it inaccessible when you're truly stuck just seems like bad ju-ju to me.

I think one reason I'm good at wheeling alone is I've been a whitewater boater for literally my entire life, and whitewater is all about reading the river, picking a line, and hitting the line. Same stuff applies to wheeling.

I'll look around at bumper designs... hopefully I can get some welding gear soon

 

[rusty_tlc]

How would I go about setting up a hydraulic or PTO winch? I'd have to get a new transmission for PTO wouldn't I? Seriously sucks that American Toyotas don't come with PTO anymore :/

If I did a rear winch, it would be a full sized setup. I'd just need to find a bumper that would work for that.... Which may not exist.

PTO is an option on most Toyota Transfer cases, if you look you will find an access plate on the side of you T-case where the PTO mounts. Hydraulic is fine until your truck is swamped and the engine dies, then you will wish you had an electric winch. At least it will work until the battery runs out.

.....


Would work well for some. But I expect that it is better used by guys who tend to get crossed up in rocks rather than mired in bogs.


Mark...

From my experience getting crossed up in rocks, we usually use a strap to tug someone off of a big rock that has them turtled. Much quicker than screwing around with a winch. You usually only have to move the truck a few feet to get them clear. Our trucks have low enough gearing we can easily control a pull, it's not like jerking a truck out of the mud or sand. I can actually pull slower with a strap than with my 8274.

 

[crushers]

we have a winner!
RiverRatMatt: is all about reading the trail, picking a line, and hitting the line.

and a close second place goes to
Kidglove: "Most problems occur because of stupidity. "



of course s*** can go sideways when wheeling alone. wheeling with a buddy in his truck can lead to a false sense of security as well. have you never had 2 trucks stuck at the same time? or 3 or 4? it can happen.

years back we had 3 trucks out on a winter run, Feburary in the mountains. the sun goes down at about 4 pm, we watched as the sun set from on top of a ridge. it had been a beautiful day, traction was good, trucks running well, good bunch of experienced guys out on the run.
after the sun set i pulled out the top map and looked it over, the main trail out was just over the next ridge. i said my now famous words "i know a short cut". that short cut left 2 trucks stuck on the trail and 4 adults and 2 full size dogs and Daryl's compliment of gear in one FJ40 who's fuel gauge read 1/8th of a tank. by the time that truck (now the fuel guage was reading below empty) made it back up to the ridge we were at at 4 PM it was now 1 AM and we still had 3 ridges to cover before we got back to the main road where my tow vehicle was waiting. we arrived home at 4 AM.

long story short, 2 trucks went in, 3 experienced and capable drivers, a faulty charging system, 2 dead winches, lack of fuel. we made it out, we made it home and a week later we has a rescue run to get those 2 remaining trucks off the hill.

s*** happens, wether you have a winch front and rear, winch in the middle, by yourself or in a group.
you can not be afraid to wheel by yourself,
you need common sense when wheelig with others and no matter how well prepared you are, no matter how well your truck and winch is maintained ... s*** happens.

RiverRat, you are making a good decision.

 

[PadgettFabrication]

PTO winches also require the engine to be running... and electric winches might let you pull a full cable length before your battery dies, and then where are you besides stuck?

"Hydraulic is fine until your truck is swamped and the engine dies, then you will wish you had an electric winch. At least it will work until the battery runs out. "

It is True that Hydraulic winches have one flaw, and only one.... Most require the engine to be running. I had 2 electric winches before I converted to Hydraulic after the military, and I will never go back. The only disadvantage to the Hydraulic winches is that the do generally need the engine to be running. On the flip side, you can run hydraulic winches under load all day long and only get them hot to the touch, but you won't ever damage one. They are also waterproof and can be run under water, again, all day long. They are a Bit slow, but I have 2 speeds on both.

Honestly weight doesn't bother me. I keep it low and have the biggest tires I can stuff into my wheel-wells. I love wheeling with the Family, and I really don't see why I should have to have multiple vehicles to have a great family outing.

My rig is pretty unique in the winch setup. I can't be without power to my winches because I have an on board 5.5Hp Honda powered Hydraulic pump. I use my rig for my fabrication business and I have hydraulic tools, shears, punches, presses etc I trailer around for my business, but not on the trail/. I do tote my hydraulic pump, and yes its extra weight. But I can run my winches on either end, both ends, or pull the rear winch out and tote it to someone else's stuck rig and pull them out too. Its really not a big deal.

Obviously my setup is overkill. Thats what I wanted, and as to cost, the winches were $300-ish each (if you stay on eBay like I do anyways)

And honestly my Primary trail rig is a 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee, only because I I have 6 seats to fill, and I didn't want the size of a Land cruiser.

 

[Mark W]

I get a kick out of some of the ideas I have seen here now.

Guys that claim they would never need a winch anywhere but on the front because they never go back, only forward... Really? Not the kind of attitude I want to be out in the back country with. But I imagine that once the keyboard and the web forum are left behind it is another song being sung anyway.

Guys that claim they never get stuck... Really? Either awful timid, awful low experience, going some pretty tame places or some sort of superman.

Guys that say they only use their winch to recover others... Doubtful, but be that as it may, this thread is about mounting a winch for self recovery. One of my buddies runs a towing company and he has never used the winch on his mil-surplus tracked rig except to recover others... so what?

Guys that jump on their soapbox and proclaim that "no one should 'wheel' alone"... Please, spare me the weekender stuff. Some of us use our vehicles to go places. Sometimes we go those places alone. When I am searching out a new route into the mountains or trying to prove one up on the ground after scouting it from the air, I may be accompanied by one or two trusted trail partners or I may be out there with just a dog. It is a common occurance. Right here in this thread there are more than a couple of us who have been traveling the back country and wilderness for decades, alone as well as in groups. And you insinuate you are in a position to tell us that it is a "bad idea"? The word clueless comes to mind.

Or say things like "XXX" is so awful I would never use it". Really? If you were stuck you would refuse a pull? If you were offered an "xxx" for free you would rather be winchless?

If an (inarguably complicated) center mount winch under the rig serves your purpose and works smoothly for you, then go for it. I would love to figure out such a system that would actually work for my needs. I have a couple of rigs which could be served well by a single electric winch if I could overcome these deal breakers for how I use the rigs. (And a couple which would not be.) If you think that a front mount is best, a rear mount... if you want to sing the praise of dual winches...AND you have some valid experience to bring to the discussion... Share it, please.

If your opinion is based on limited use in a limited variety of situations... or merely on webwheeling... be honest with yourself and listen a bit to those who have used their equipment a little more.

We *could* argue over the merits of PTO, Hydraulic or electric power for our winches. But it is kinda pointless. They serve different purposes and there are those here who have different needs. Consider your uses and go with what fills them. You can always switch later on if it turns out to not be the best for you after all.

 

[Mark W]

Hey Wayne... the rainbow text hurts my eyes!





Mark...

 

[Mark W]

From my experience getting crossed up in rocks, we usually use a strap to tug someone off of a big rock that has them turtled. Much quicker than screwing around with a winch. You usually only have to move the truck a few feet to get them clear. Our trucks have low enough gearing we can easily control a pull, it's not like jerking a truck out of the mud or sand. I can actually pull slower with a strap than with my 8274.

I use my PTO when we need a really delicate and controlled pull. Overall a lot of the rigs on our trails are not as low geared as those that spend their time in rocks. I have about 275:1, but only a couple of the other guys are anywhere near that. When we use a strap it is usually either just a quick gentle tug, or a pretty strong yank.

The winches come into play many times because a strap will not reach. Or there is no one who can get a suitable rig to where the pull needs to go. (snatching a mired wagon w/trailer using a first gen mini-truck is gonna be pointless many times...) And of course also in many cases the winch gets the nod because a strap would be too violent or too brief an input.


Mark...

 

[Mark W]

I have dual 12,000 Mile Marker Hydraulic Winches, front and rear, but honestly I rarely ever use either for myself. The rear option is awesome if you EVER wheel alone, because you can pull back, rethink, rest, and move forward. The front winch option is great too. You can always go with the receiver option if you want, as it works pretty good if you are on a budget. Its really your call.

In my mind, the ideal setup except for weight and complication is a hydro winch on the front and an electric for the rear.

It is a lot easier to use a hydro along with power to the wheels to self extract than it is to do this with a PTO. The ability to turn the wheels at speeds unrelated to the winch line speed is a big advantage.

In my real world, a PTO up front and electric in back is the winner for me.

Mark...

 

[Mark W]

Well, the way I see it is that you shouldn't need to get to the winch itself anyway. You should only really need to get to the cable and the controller plug. If you're stuck and having to screw with the actual winch itself, time to get a more reliable winch or have a buddy pull ya out. Unless you're simply referring to the freespool lever; in which case, mine is accessible from above the bumper but that's still not something that's a "must have". Freespool just makes things quicker and easier but not a necessity IMO. And if you're referring to the cable, it's reachable on the outside of the rear bumper and just under the front bumper. And last but not least, just to cover all areas, the solenoid pack where the controller plugs in to is inside the bed just inside the tailgate hooked up to a 2nd battery. Does all that make sense?

My thoughts go to ensuring a clean laydown of the cable on the drum. And to dealing with cable that get wedges a layer down when you fail to get a good laydown.

Or to having the winch caked in mud and brush fragments that get caught and pulled into the drum along with the cable, or having the cable pulled off the pulleys by brush or roots or whatever.

And using the winch while it is pressed under the muck... not being able to see where the cable has actually wound up under the rig and what may or may not be interfering with it all before I apply power to it.

Counting on it to function properly when submerged in many cases, not just put up with dunkings and splashings while the rig is on the move.

The reach limitation of having to use a double line anytime you winch to the rear would be a concern, but not one that can't be dealt with.
When self extracting in the terrain I spend my time it, it is very common to need all the reach you can get... and more.

It is nice to assume that we will never need to perform any field repairs on our gear... but it does happen... and saying that " If you're stuck and having to screw with the actual winch itself, time to get a more reliable winch or have a buddy pull ya out. " is kinda dodging the question. If we are gonna depend on buddies, we could skip having a winch at all.


I do like the fact that it keeps the weight a bit lower and uses space that is usually wasted. and of course the cost of one winch instead of two (and the weight of only one).



It sounds like your setup serves you well. But like every other under-rig system I have encountered, it has drawbacks for my uses.


Mark...

 

[crushers]

i don't like/trust low profile winches
but
if i was stuck and needed a tug, i would accept one to pull me out ... and i would buy the guy a beer back at camp that night.

seriously though, i seldom use my winch when wheeling with buddies. i use my tugg'm ... a lot. quicker, easier but a winch has more control for delicate manouvering.

this is the tugg'm i recommend, i carry a 100 footer and a 50 footer, cleavises, and the 8274. that gives me roughly 300 feet of recovery ability.

 

[4xsteve]

I want one of those snatch straps sooo bad! I rarely need it anymore as I avoid mud and muck any way I can, but damn they're so quick and efficient.

 

[crushers]

this truck had broken through the ice, the diffs were resting on solid and the tire was under the level of the ice. pulling straight ahead or back was not an option as the tire would not bump up and over, impossible.

so

using a chainsaw, cut a line out the front for the tire to have "some" movement forward.
then drive the tow vehicle out onto a traction surface at a decent angle to the vehicle and hook to the LOW side hook. this will pull the vehicle up as well as over.
a gentle pull was all that was needed and he was back in action.

yes, a winch could have done the job but by the time you would get set up, run the cable out to the anchor vehicle and winch in, disconnect, winch cable all the way in then it would be a LOT longer.

also

the rope gave the stuck vehicle the sudden momentum needed to get up and over without any further damage to the steering components and wheel.

the anchor point without any vehicles to secure to would have been a stretch even with the 300 ft of combination rope and cable.

winches are a life saver. proper tugg'm are the cat's ass.

of course a 6 ft highlift, with the spare as a base in the bloody cold water below the vehicle would have helped to lift the buried side up so the winch could pull safely out.

no matter what you have to use to get unstuck, a clear head, common sense are needed.

a winch at the rear of this truck would have made little (if any) difference.