Why not a hot-rod build? (1 Viewer)

[Gippster]

OK, several vendors have hot-rod tractor engines. I recently spoke with a reputable restoration shop about my project and desire to hot-rod the 2F. I got the vibe that he didn't like the idea and only wanted to rebuild the engine and maybe add the H55F. I plan to switch the engine with a rebuilt hot rod, EFI, H55F transmission, headers, exhaust, and rehaul to make it somewhat highway-worthy to the extent possible without going the LS route.

I'm wondering why they hesitated and if I'm missing anything. What's going on here? Is it sacrilegious to consider the above, and why wouldn't a vendor support the decision? Is it a matter of preference? If I'm willing to spend the money, what difference does it make, or is this my paranoia reading into the conversation too much?

 

[4runner2FJ60]

Have you heard of Mosley Motors? They build Cop Motor 2Fs!

 

[Gippster]

Have you heard of Mosley Motors? They build Cop Motor 2Fs!

I have, indeed, that's how all of this started. They're a top contender, but their backlog might sway me to the alternate route of Man-a-Fre.

 

[dbbowen]

Spend 2x the cost of an LS Swap on a motor thats less reliable, less powerful, has less power potential, and has had the reliability removed from it. Thats why you see so many LS swaps. They are cheap, they work, and in completely stock form outperform any modified 2f or 3fe.

2fs are reliable because they are low RPM long stroke high displacement low compression underpowered motors. They are built for slow torque not hp or speed. You can see with the 3fe that they destroked it to get a little higher rev from, it and some more top end power. Why would you spend all of that money to remove the built in reliability?

If you are absolutely dead set on keeping a F engine in your truck the 2FE looks interesting, basically a 3fe head on a 2f block. That way you get efi, better head flow etc. But even then, you are creeping into LS swap money territory.

There are many other inline 6s you could put in as well. 1FZ from an 80 series. 1JZ from a japanese importer, 2JZ from an is300 with supra rods and pistons and a turbo. 6bt Cummins, 12HT. All for similar money with much higher power ceiling. If you want a toyota v6 the 5VZ is a great motor as well.

Its the same thing with 22re's. People will spend oodles of money from LCE to hop up their 22r based motor and wonder why it has problems, or isnt as powerful as they expected, when they could have swapped in a 3RZ for cheaper and have more power

At the end of the day its your money though so do whatever you want. That one shop didnt want to do it, but theres probably 10 other shops that will take your money and do whatever you want to your truck. There is a reason its LS Swap the world and the most common swap is the LS Based v8, and not people swapping hopped up 2fs into literally every car imaginable. In a 60 series with a cheap junkyard 5.3 swapped in you can set cruise control and drive across the country at 95 mph all day long with no sweat. Idk about all of that with a F series motor

 

[Gippster]

Spend 2x the cost of an LS Swap on a motor thats less reliable, less powerful, has less power potential, and has had the reliability removed from it. Thats why you see so many LS swaps. They are cheap, they work, and in completely stock form outperform any modified 2f or 3fe.

2fs are reliable because they are low RPM long stroke high displacement low compression underpowered motors. They are built for slow torque not hp or speed. You can see with the 3fe that they destroked it to get a little higher rev from, it and some more top end power. Why would you spend all of that money to remove the built in reliability?

If you are absolutely dead set on keeping a F engine in your truck the 2FE looks interesting, basically a 3fe head on a 2f block. That way you get efi, better head flow etc. But even then, you are creeping into LS swap money territory.

There are many other inline 6s you could put in as well. 1FZ from an 80 series. 1JZ from a japanese importer, 2JZ from an is300 with supra rods and pistons and a turbo. 6bt Cummins, 12HT. All for similar money with much higher power ceiling. If you want a toyota v6 the 5VZ is a great motor as well.

Its the same thing with 22re's. People will spend oodles of money from LCE to hop up their 22r based motor and wonder why it has problems, or isnt as powerful as they expected, when they could have swapped in a 3RZ for cheaper and have more power

At the end of the day its your money though so do whatever you want. That one shop didnt want to do it, but theres probably 10 other shops that will take your money and do whatever you want to your truck. There is a reason its LS Swap the world and the most common swap is the LS Based v8, and not people swapping hopped up 2fs into literally every car imaginable. In a 60 series with a cheap junkyard 5.3 swapped in you can set cruise control and drive across the country at 95 mph all day long with no sweat. Idk about all of that with a F series motor

Fair. In your experience, what's the average cost of an LS swap? Information that isn't readily available, or maybe I don't know how to look it up?

 

[dbbowen]

Fair. In your experience, what's the average cost of an LS swap? Information that isn't readily available, or maybe I don't know how to look it up?

DIY, about 10-15k. I dont know about a shop installing it

 

[Gippster]

DIY, about 10-15k. I dont know about a shop installing it

Guessing close to $25 (minimum) when most shops charge $200/hr. That's where the cost is, not in the motor. I wish I had the room to do it myself, I don't want to turn it into a 10-year project that I can't drive, so yeah, maybe spending my money isn't a bad idea, though now the comparison of LS to 2F swap is a consideration, I'm also not going rock climbing and a V8 is probably overkill for me. Thanks tho.

 

[OSS]

It’s like trying to hot-rod a snail. You can only do so much. The wiser choice is to get a lizard. They can run so much faster naturally.
Get a lizard, not a souped up snail.

 

[BurntToast]

Guessing close to $25 (minimum) when most shops charge $200/hr. That's where the cost is, not in the motor. I wish I had the room to do it myself, I don't want to turn it into a 10-year project that I can't drive, so yeah, maybe spending my money isn't a bad idea, though now the comparison of LS to 2F swap is a consideration, I'm also not going rock climbing and a V8 is probably overkill for me. Thanks tho.

I did (still doing mine ) in a small garage. All is possible. Can be done in a few weeks if you have all the parts. Few months is more likely

 

[dbbowen]

Guessing close to $25 (minimum) when most shops charge $200/hr. That's where the cost is, not in the motor. I wish I had the room to do it myself, I don't want to turn it into a 10-year project that I can't drive, so yeah, maybe spending my money isn't a bad idea, though now the comparison of LS to 2F swap is a consideration, I'm also not going rock climbing and a V8 is probably overkill for me. Thanks tho.

the 2f is actually great for rock crawling. The v8 is for better street driving. imo if you were building it for solely offroad id keep the 2f, do a throttle body injection and lower diff and tcase gears. I loved the 2f offroad, its just when it got onto pavement it sucked. Exactly how it was originally designed to be.


Before i did my LS Swap i had never even pulled an engine before. I did have some experience though but that was my first engine pull.

You gotta think. Hot rodding a 2f is going to cost you 12-15k for the engine alone as well. The difference is installing it is less labor intensive, because its largely a remove and replace type deal.

I got my 5.3 and 4l60e trans from a tahoe in a junkyard in 2020 for 2,500 bucks. I changed the spark plugs and wires and installed it. Prices have gone up some since then but theyre largely still pretty cheap. Gotta learn somehow

It’s like trying to hot-rod a snail. You can only do so much. The wiser choice is to get a lizard. They can run so much faster naturally.
Get a lizard, not a souped up snail.

This is a perfect analogy haha

 

[dbbowen]

I did (still doing mine ) in a small garage. All is possible. Can be done in a few weeks if you have all the parts. Few months is more likely

Ive done a few now, and my record is 30 days lol. That is with help from another person and mostly working on weekends due to having an infant

 

[Gippster]

Damnit, now you're gonna tell me I need a friend?! Those people require commitment

 

[tmxmotorsports]

Could use a 4.8 vortec/ ls

 

[FJBen]

while technically not wrong on LS benefits, it is a deeper project with a lot more costs involved even DIY. Any engine swap other than factory costs more than you think.


Welding, driveshafts, Any body mods, wiring, cooling, exhaust adapters/transmission just to name a few.

The benefit of the 2F…all bolts right back in and you are good to go. About the only issues you might have would be with a sniper conversion. 2F is stupid simple and can be built up during a rebuild to have plenty of reliable power for an FJ40. Pricey? Yes but a decent old hot rod shop can build it.


If you can do all the DIY work AND you want a V8, then have at it. they are well documented so Almost all of the pitfalls are figured out. They drive great, parts everywhere cheap.


I wouldn’t worry about a hot rod 2F reliability unless you plan on putting a crap ton of miles on…not to mention unless you find a low mileage LS, it appears the cheap ones are a few grand with over 150k miles.

Apples/oranges on fully rebuilding/hot rod 2F bs slapping in used LS.



IMO, the LS swap is more about newer V8 power for “cheap” vs keeping Toyota power/originality.

 

[Gippster]

while technically not wrong on LS benefits, it is a deeper project with a lot more costs involved even DIY. Any engine swap other than factory costs more than you think.


Welding, driveshafts, Any body mods, wiring, cooling, exhaust adapters/transmission just to name a few.

The benefit of the 2F…all bolts right back in and you are good to go. About the only issues you might have would be with a sniper conversion. 2F is stupid simple and can be built up during a rebuild to have plenty of reliable power for an FJ40. Pricey? Yes but a decent old hot rod shop can build it.


If you can do all the DIY work AND you want a V8, then have at it. they are well documented so Almost all of the pitfalls are figured out. They drive great, parts everywhere cheap.


I wouldn’t worry about a hot rod 2F reliability unless you plan on putting a crap ton of miles on…not to mention unless you find a low mileage LS, it appears the cheap ones are a few grand with over 150k miles.

Apples/oranges on fully rebuilding/hot rod 2F bs slapping in used LS.



IMO, the LS swap is more about newer V8 power for “cheap” vs keeping Toyota power/originality.

I appreciate your reply, and the thing is, I'm not driving it daily; I don't commute, and I work from home exclusively, so low miles is where it's at. I, on occasion drive to DIA, I'll just take the other car, not the one that will likely get stolen Other than that, it's the assurance of being able to safely take it up to an acceptable speed, not causing an accident.

Yep, the purist in me is willing to spend the dockets to keep it relatively original with a few niceties without having to retrofit too much. Restomod is super neat; I'm just not that person or have the need. Not to mention, the LS swap feels sketchy on a vehicle with a body on the frame. Wowie, I can't imagine doing 85mph with a V8; that's gotta be an adrenaline rush.

Sure, I might have a neighbor who can be my rebuild buddy, but that time taken versus the money spent is part of my calculus. It's not like cash is burning in my pockets, but I'm trying to index what I can/should do versus what I want a pro that deals daily to do for me. The other factor is if I were to run it, in its current form through a shop, not doing anything, I'm gonna pay $5-10K alone on the basic maintenance; that's 1/3 of the way there to a full rebuild hot-rod, headers, manifold, transmission, exhaust already, labor including.

However, it is super helpful to hear all points of view to help me decide. I'll post pictures with the end result sometime soon.

 

[dbbowen]

Wowie, I can't imagine doing 85mph with a V8; that's gotta be an adrenaline rush.

It literally feels no different than doing 65... the 60 series only gets sketchy once you go past 100 if your suspension and steering components are maintained well.

Last year i did Salt lake city to Boisie with cruise control (another thing you get with an LS Swap) set on 95mph with zero issues. During that time I had LOTR Return of the king playing on my radio headunit. It was the extended version and i made it to boisie just as the movie was finishing. This was after driving from Moab to Park City with no brakes (shoutout @Dubs2017 ) and after wheeling moab for 2 days. The overall trip was Tennessee to Oregon. zero engine issues whatsoever.

You couldnt pay me to do that trip with a 2f. My 5.3 is endlessly more reliable than the 2f that it replaced. With the 2f my rule was nothing more than 3 hours of a drive

 

[FJBen]

It literally feels no different than doing 65...

until you have to stop or avoid someone
Gosh I’m getting old…to be fair, I don’t drive 85 in my “modern” vehicles.

I appreciate your reply, and the thing is, I'm not driving it daily; I don't commute, and I work from home exclusively, so low miles is where it's at. I, on occasion drive to DIA, I'll just take the other car, not the one that will likely get stolen Other than that, it's the assurance of being able to safely take it up to an acceptable speed, not causing an accident.

Yep, the purist in me is willing to spend the dockets to keep it relatively original with a few niceties without having to retrofit too much. Restomod is super neat; I'm just not that person or have the need. Not to mention, the LS swap feels sketchy on a vehicle with a body on the frame. Wowie, I can't imagine doing 85mph with a V8; that's gotta be an adrenaline rush.

Sure, I might have a neighbor who can be my rebuild buddy, but that time taken versus the money spent is part of my calculus. It's not like cash is burning in my pockets, but I'm trying to index what I can/should do versus what I want a pro that deals daily to do for me. The other factor is if I were to run it, in its current form through a shop, not doing anything, I'm gonna pay $5-10K alone on the basic maintenance; that's 1/3 of the way there to a full rebuild hot-rod, headers, manifold, transmission, exhaust already, labor including.

However, it is super helpful to hear all points of view to help me decide. I'll post pictures with the end result sometime soon.

Nice another Colorado cruiser.

Yeah I won’t shame people on engine swaps. I’ve had 2 40s with V8s. A spring over on 37” tires with a fuel injected 350, yeehaw!

A fresh 2F (not counting hot rod) on normal ish tires ( not 35s or bigger) will get up to speed and travel just fine. Pablocruise on here has a 3FE in his sweet restored FJ55 and it flat moves. 75 no issues at all. That’s stock 4spd, 33x9.50 tires. I’ve heard that a 3FE head on a 2F helps even more ( I don’t know as much about that)

You want stockish?
build up the 2F a little,
3FE head or sniper
Headers, upgraded coil/ignition

You’ll have a fine running 2F that will highway all day long at 75. Getting a Mosley built cop engine 2f, you are increasing value a bit and getting a killer engine.

You want that restomod V8 power/sound?
LS swap.

 

[yotadude520]

while technically not wrong on LS benefits, it is a deeper project with a lot more costs involved even DIY. Any engine swap other than factory costs more than you think.


Welding, driveshafts, Any body mods, wiring, cooling, exhaust adapters/transmission just to name a few.

The benefit of the 2F…all bolts right back in and you are good to go. About the only issues you might have would be with a sniper conversion. 2F is stupid simple and can be built up during a rebuild to have plenty of reliable power for an FJ40. Pricey? Yes but a decent old hot rod shop can build it.


If you can do all the DIY work AND you want a V8, then have at it. they are well documented so Almost all of the pitfalls are figured out. They drive great, parts everywhere cheap.


I wouldn’t worry about a hot rod 2F reliability unless you plan on putting a crap ton of miles on…not to mention unless you find a low mileage LS, it appears the cheap ones are a few grand with over 150k miles.

Apples/oranges on fully rebuilding/hot rod 2F bs slapping in used LS.



IMO, the LS swap is more about newer V8 power for “cheap” vs keeping Toyota power/originality.

I'm currently prepping to do a 5.3 LS swap right now in my 60, and will be doing it myself but I can tell you that unless you're going with a 4L60E or 4L80E it's not all that bad. You can run the Mark's Adapters bell housing with the H55F or the H42 which allows you to keep your transmission and transfer case in the same spot as factory so you don't need to alter driveshafts. Mosley, cruisermatt & other vendors here have a ton of parts designed to make this as painless as possible and there's a reason the aftermarket for this is growing.

I had this same argument with myself when I first got my 60 and considering mine will be a daily driver as well as a regular commuter from Arizona to Colorado for the next year I'm pulling the trigger on the LS swap. I gave the 2F an honest shot and did some nice work to get it running well and reliably, but at the end of the day I can't afford to wait three days to get 2F parts if I'm traveling between states, and I'd like to have some power to get up mountains loaded with gear.

If you want your 60 to the only car you own and a reliable daily driver, you really can't beat the practicality, parts availability and reliability of an LS. If you plan on having another car to daily drive for long trips then keep the 2F or hot rod it.

 

[dbbowen]

If you want your 60 to the only car you own and a reliable daily driver, you really can't beat the practicality, parts availability and reliability of an LS. If you plan on having another car to daily drive for long trips then keep the 2F or hot rod it.

Nailed it.

 

[toy_tek]

OK, several vendors have hot-rod tractor engines. I recently spoke with a reputable restoration shop about my project and desire to hot-rod the 2F. I got the vibe that he didn't like the idea and only wanted to rebuild the engine and maybe add the H55F. I plan to switch the engine with a rebuilt hot rod, EFI, H55F transmission, headers, exhaust, and rehaul to make it somewhat highway-worthy to the extent possible without going the LS route.

I'm wondering why they hesitated and if I'm missing anything. What's going on here? Is it sacrilegious to consider the above, and why wouldn't a vendor support the decision? Is it a matter of preference? If I'm willing to spend the money, what difference does it make, or is this my paranoia reading into the conversation too much?

Maybe the shop has some experience with a "hot rod" tractor engine, and this was his way of signaling that he didn't think the results were worth it.