I think you make a good point. Also, I'm no expert but I also think this is the source of the confusion regarding AHC. If you know the system and how to maintain it, it's worry free. On the other hand, you hear AHC horror stories where everything goes bad and it costs thousands to repair. Those are likely the ones with rust and zero AHC maintenance. The AHC tank has an air filter on the inlet. I suspect this is the reason they moved the reservoir from the engine compartment on the 100's to the back on the 200's. The air up front was just too dirty.
Why LC more expensive than LX?
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I think you make a good point. Also, I'm no expert but I also think this is the source of the confusion regarding AHC. If you know the system and how to maintain it, it's worry free. On the other hand, you hear AHC horror stories where everything goes bad and it costs thousands to repair. Those are likely the ones with rust and zero AHC maintenance. The AHC tank has an air filter on the inlet. I suspect this is the reason they moved the reservoir from the engine compartment on the 100's to the back on the 200's. The air up front was just too dirty.
Where are these 200 series AHC horror stories where everything goes bad and costs thousands to repair? I watch this board regularly and have never seen that scenario.
My thoughts exactly. The AHC hysteria and rumors are laughable.
Here is one (or two): AHC issues on LX 570 - ClubLexus - Lexus Forum Discussion
Rust: AHC Failure on '11 570
Another Recent thread: 09 LX570 - AHC Failure
From reading, the problems with AHC are there especially if you are lazy with the maintenance...60k is a must apparently. Rust is a big problem for folks who live up north. And apparently dust too.
Yes, AHC is more reliable than Mercedes and BMW, etc.. But it does require significantly more maintenance cost and effort than LC’s traditional setup. And if it goes bad, then yeah, it can be very costly.
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I only know one first hand. But it wasn't posted here. It was Eskridge Lexus in Oklahoma city. They ended up with a trade from the Northeast (2013 LX) I inquired about last summer. What started out as a hydraulic line leak turned into a several thousand dollar repair before they could put it back on the lot (at sister Chevy dealer). All due to rust. I started looking for rust free vehicles only after that.
This is an assumption on my part, but folks on MUD seem to take much better care of their vehicles than most. Perhaps that's why we don't hear much.
Some of you may find this video series educational. This is one in particular covers a lot of fundamental hydraulic suspension problems. This is for Mercedes, but the same principals apply.
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I just this week dodged a Lexus Tax buying the tool kit for the tire change. I got a cart together on lexuspartsnow.com and then another on toyotapartsdeal.com (as far as I can tell it's the same company) and the total was significantly cheaper for the Toyota versions of the EXACT same part numbers. Even the shipping was cheaper.
That's actually a really low number. Anything can break, but based upon forum experience here and in the 100 section the 200 AHC is highly durable. I would expect an overlander LX to see a maintained AHC system last into the 250k range at least. If the 200 AHC were a problem there would be all kinds of threads on how to repair, how to improve, etc. Those threads are largely absent here. But again, that's just my perception and is only based upon anecdotal evidence.
I think the AHC fears stem from the 100 where it's way less robust of a system. I'm about to pull it out of our 2004 LX because it's clunking and getting noisy at 145k.
Knowing what I know now, I think there can be a strong argument made FOR an LX over an LC for a 'touring' setup....something that can handle say 95% of the exploring needs but not a purposeful 'crawler' or 'mudder'. I can't think of many trails that I've been on where an LX with similar tires couldn't do what I do. And being able to have the truck kneel to get into the garage would be a big plus. The only real downside that I see is the lack of slider options for the LX because of the accumulator placement outboard of the frame rails.
A quality suspension setup starts in the $2,500 range and can easily go into $5-6,000. That's a big savings that could be put towards other gear. Or toward replacing an AHC part or two should it break. It's really only a more expensive system (relative to a built LC) AFTER the repairs have exceeded what you would have spent on LC suspension components. Not to mention a similar LX can be found for $3-$5K less than a LC. Combined, that's a $5K-$10k savings on hull + build cost!
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bloc
SILVER Star
And to futher muddy the water, there has been at least one KDSS failure not caused by improper maintenance posted here. Personally the fact that KDSS has no fluid change interval and requires very specialized tools concerns me a little bit, though I trust this board to sort that out eventually.
Point is, KDSS is less complex, but not without it's own complexity. The sheer complexity of AHC is the primary reason I avoided it, plus at the time no options to delete let alone go to tundra arms, which I didn't "plan" to do, but know myself well enough to leave it as a possibility. So I got a Landcruiser, and absolutely love it.
Now it turns out AHC delete and tundra arms is possible.. though you are left with traditional swaybars that won't come close to matching KDSS performance on and off-road. Maybe the high-end suspension required for a tundra arm swap will be better than stock suspension plus KDSS.. but then with a cruiser you could have that high end suspension AND KDSS.
Point is, KDSS is less complex, but not without it's own complexity. The sheer complexity of AHC is the primary reason I avoided it, plus at the time no options to delete let alone go to tundra arms, which I didn't "plan" to do, but know myself well enough to leave it as a possibility. So I got a Landcruiser, and absolutely love it.
Now it turns out AHC delete and tundra arms is possible.. though you are left with traditional swaybars that won't come close to matching KDSS performance on and off-road. Maybe the high-end suspension required for a tundra arm swap will be better than stock suspension plus KDSS.. but then with a cruiser you could have that high end suspension AND KDSS.
1world1love
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Yeah, I looked for about a year and had a hard time finding well maintained LCs for sale and when I did, they were sold before I even had a chance. All during that time I found LXs at about a 10-1 ratio. They were all super clean soccer mom or country club dad cars. They are mainly purchased or leased new by folks that have no intention of keeping a vehicle more than 3 years and often less.
My wife finally convinced me to drive one and the rest is history. We bought it, took it straight to the tire shop to have KO2s put on, and then packed it up and spent the weekend driving the hell out of it up in the mountains. I have never looked back and have never regretted it. I love the AHC and I have never felt that there were places I couldn’t go because of it.
On the other hand, the clearance sucks. Way to much plastic on the front and rear, but I am not entirely sure if it is significantly worse approach/departure than the LC. Maybe.
I did go to the Master Service Tech at a local Lexus shop to ask about the AHC before we bought and he said that he has never had to replace a full system and that they rarely actually get to work on them so it is hard to get the techs any experience with it.
My wife finally convinced me to drive one and the rest is history. We bought it, took it straight to the tire shop to have KO2s put on, and then packed it up and spent the weekend driving the hell out of it up in the mountains. I have never looked back and have never regretted it. I love the AHC and I have never felt that there were places I couldn’t go because of it.
On the other hand, the clearance sucks. Way to much plastic on the front and rear, but I am not entirely sure if it is significantly worse approach/departure than the LC. Maybe.
I did go to the Master Service Tech at a local Lexus shop to ask about the AHC before we bought and he said that he has never had to replace a full system and that they rarely actually get to work on them so it is hard to get the techs any experience with it.
There's some funny perceptions on these board. Sure, branding may have something to do with it. KDSS is awesome and hardcore because it's on the a Toyota LC. AHC is wimpy and soft because it's on a Lexus LX.
They're both 200-series land cruisers sharing 90% of the exact same hardcore components coming off of the same production lines. Fitted with different levels of standard equipment tailored for their respective missions. Likely designed by the same core development team to carry on the legacy of the vaunted Land Cruiser and its celebrated heritage.
Hardcore fact. KDSS was first fitted to a Lexus before it ever touched a Toyota. Namely the 2004 Lexus GX470.
What if I told you that AHC is KDSS-PRO. And the LX was LC-PRO. That's not far from the truth. Some may prefer simpler and less, but that doesn't mean the LX is a lesser vehicle.
We know KDSS is the bees knees, but you might want to know that KDSS and AHC are both fundamentally cross linked suspension technology licensed from Tenneco Inc. They're variations on the implementation of Tenneco's kinetic suspension technology. One is simple, passive, and scoped to cost (KDSS). One is the technology tour de force, full featured and actively computer controlled, that does way way more than just roll control while allowing for articulation off-road.
Guess which one scores higher RTI. On 20" wheels. Scores of 542 to 538, LX to LC respectively. Because Toyota didn't spend extra development and technology to come up with a vehicle that objectively performs worse. Lexus has higher target requirements for performance, capability, comfort, reliability, and is where Toyota often demonstrates their technology prowress. Where I will concede is that LC is likely more durable and more easily field repairable by virtue of its simplicity. But let's not conflate simplicity with more capability.
AHC allows for easier fitment of larger 35" tires, because of that pesky KDSS bar. Lower hanging bodywork can be more than offset by 35s and sensor lifted AHC high to the tune of 6"+ lift. While not suffering the compromises of aftermarket lifted suspensions day to day. That to me is high end.
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Not sure about that RTI, but Edmunds got 647 for LC: How RTI Compares To A 4-Door Rubicon - 2012 Jeep Wrangler Long-Term Road Test
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bloc
SILVER Star
Here we go again with the AHC-victim complex.
Who is typing AHC is wimpy and soft other than you? Who is saying KDSS is hardcore? The part of my post you quoted dealt specifically with Tundra-armed-AHC-removed vehicles. Which will run a standard swaybar, if one at all. Which isn't as stiff as a KDSS bar on-road, nor as compliant as a KDSS system off-road.
Care to actually address that?
How could this possibly lead you to even more verbosity including little known facts like who licensed these systems to toyota? How is that relevant? You didn't casually mention your turbo porsche or vast tuning knowledge though.. so.. I guess that's progress.
With the 2 to 1 LX to LC ratio, one would expect more AHC failure reports.
Plus the fact that AHC comes on LC around the world, and in the more international online groups there’s rarely ever any discussion of AHC problems.
Plus the fact that AHC comes on LC around the world, and in the more international online groups there’s rarely ever any discussion of AHC problems.
I suspect that the wimpy soft comments refer to longevity and reliability, which is an oft repeated “concern.”
Sorry if I used your specific example to address some of the other comments in this thread.
It is relevant because from an LX AHC owner perspective, KDSS doesn't even matter. Upgrading AHC to aftermarket, is arguably not even an upgrade.
AHC is already stiffer and handles better on-road than any KDSS equipped LC. At the same time more compliant and more capable off-road. Modable too.
Save for one that wants to maybe race their 200-series which will want more specialized suspension that the LC might be better suited to. Then there's Monica campaigned by Canguro racing that started life as an LX. Because both the LC and LX are practically the same thing and equally 200-series.
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Thank you for a detailed response. I have owned two Lexus, I really like the experience. But with the LX filling premium fuel starts to get expensive soon with no real performance or efficiency advantage. I love ventilated seats, I wish early versions of LC had them. Although both ML and JBL are owned by Harman Luxury group, there is a significant difference in the sound quality.
Along with hauling kids along I anticipate quite bit of driving in dirt road (ranches).
The older LX do not have in your face design as the 2016+ models. They resemble much closer to LC. Which I like.
I like the white exterior and beige interior.
bloc
SILVER Star
Food for thought... in the unlikely event either system totally fails on-trail...
KDSS: loss of sway-bar control (but still regular ride height), possible induced lean.
AHC: Possible loss of ride-height control, potentially including sitting on the bump stops.
So I don't trigger anyone: this is a hypothetical! I like thought experiments.
Am I off-base or are there other potential concerns?
How do those numbers compare to the representation on this board though? I've been seeing a LOT of people buying used LXs on here. And you are right, not many problems.
KDSS: loss of sway-bar control (but still regular ride height), possible induced lean.
AHC: Possible loss of ride-height control, potentially including sitting on the bump stops.
So I don't trigger anyone: this is a hypothetical! I like thought experiments.
Am I off-base or are there other potential concerns?
How do those numbers compare to the representation on this board though? I've been seeing a LOT of people buying used LXs on here. And you are right, not many problems.
