Why are OEM tires so bad? (2 Viewers)

[05ls430518]

And, most new 200 buyers didn’t care about 33s or indestructible sidewalls.

They did care about noise, ride quality, safety, and yes, mileage.

Jeeps and broncos have the same regulatory constraints but are sold on an image of off-road performance.. I’d bet the majority of people willing and able to buy a new Landcruiser don’t have any clue how good it is off-road.. they just want something reliable and comfortable to haul the kids around.

Your 100% correct I bought my 570 with 0 intentions of going offroad. I live in upstate NY and need a vehicle that can handle its self in crazy snow. Also my wife was in driving my modded 430 and someone crashed into her twice so we bought the 570 for safety as well.

 

[stonepa]

Look for yourself:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43546970/new-strict-epa-mpg-rules-for-2027-2032-vehicles/

I don’t claim there aren’t other factors, but the EPA is a huge problem in the US for manufacturers, and most western nations have gone similarly nuts with regulations.

Have you looked at the new demands for MPG lately?

A huge problem? Ever hear of external pressure driving innovation?

 

[TimCFJ40]

I have a coworker who worked for a number of years at Michelin, and he worked with a number of OEMs on OEM tires. We talked about this at length a number of times. The takeaways match most of what has been said, but in general, OEM tires have three metrics:
1) Cost - Cheapest possible to meet the other criteria
2) NVH/ride/performance - how does the vehicle feel on the test drive.
3) Looks (Where it matters) - For vehicles like the Wrangler/Bronco/Top Tier off-road versions of most pickups, does the tire look the part? You'll notice on a lot of mid and low tier Broncos and Wranglers a slightly more aggressive sidewall pattern on a ho-hum street-ish AT. For general passenger car/crossovers, looks aren't even in the formula. If it's black, round, and rubber, it goes.

The manufacturer could care less about how long the tire lasts, or how it does in extreme conditions. They also know that most true enthusiasts have a preference on tires and will replace them anyway.

He also mentioned that even for the same model of the same tire in the same size, the OEM version may use entirely different construction and compounds to meet these requirements. In many cases, the OEM tires externally might appear identical to the aftermarket version, carry the same model nomenclature, but be a wholly different tire from a construction/materials standpoint.

 

[Markuson]

A huge problem? Ever hear of external pressure driving innovation?

Sure. I have.
I guess i’m thinking more broadly than this thread title… We have states already making declarations set to ban internal combustion engines… way before there are viable alternatives…regardless of “innovations” nowhere near sustainable feasibility for our segment…who hit the boondocks for extended periods.

My only point about crappy OEM tires was that many things like that are done with MPG ratings in mind…that obviously take huge hits in the after market—which manufacturers aren’t obligated to care about at that point.

Sorta like Calories listed on Cereal boxes…that sound great & low cal… until you realize their serving sizes are smaller than any cereal bowl you’d ever eat in my life.

Same with engine tunes on cars people want max performance from… tuned from the factory to eek out mpg…knowing full well they’ll be tweaked later to get a better performing mix…but with worse mpg. Casein point, the WRX I had. -Set up to run lean…but massively improved with a reflash…changing programming to improve the power band, but where mpg suffered…just like knobby tires do). Just like tires…aftermarket doesn’t effect manufacturer ratings.

But anyway… Just thinking out loud here, and it seems to be more controversial here that I expected…

For kicks & giggles…
Here’s a fun one from California…

California moves to accelerate to 100% new zero-emission vehicle sales by 2035 | California Air Resources Board

SACRAMENTO – The California Air Resources Board today approved the trailblazing Advanced Clean Cars II rule that sets California on a path to rapidly growing the zero-emission car, pickup truck and SUV market and deliver cleaner air and massive reductions in climate-warming pollution.

ww2.arb.ca.gov

 

[studawg]

.... AND meet fuel economy requirements.

This. I believe this is maybe the biggest reason for the tire put on a vehicle from factory. Manufacturers have to meet the CAFE requirements and every little tenth of MPG across the whole product line helps. Meanwhile, CAFE requirements have been getting higher and higher. Same reason that the V8 is now a V6 turbo.

 

[stonepa]

Sure. I have.
I guess i’m thinking more broadly than this thread title… We have states already making declarations set to ban internal combustion engines… way before there are viable alternatives…regardless of “innovations” nowhere near sustainable feasibility for our segment…who hit the boondocks for extended periods.

My only point about crappy OEM tires was that many things like that are done with MPG ratings in mind…that obviously take huge hits in the after market—which manufacturers aren’t obligated to care about at that point.

Sorta like Calories listed on Cereal boxes…that sound great & low cal… until you realize their serving sizes are smaller than any cereal bowl you’d ever eat in my life.

Same with engine tunes on cars people want max performance from… tuned from the factory to eek out mpg…knowing full well they’ll be tweaked later to get a better performing mix…but with worse mpg. Casein point, the WRX I had. -Set up to run lean…but massively improved with a reflash…changing programming to improve the power band, but where mpg suffered…just like knobby tires do). Just like tires…aftermarket doesn’t effect manufacturer ratings.

But anyway… Just thinking out loud here, and it seems to be more controversial here that I expected…

For kicks & giggles…
Here’s a fun one from California…

California moves to accelerate to 100% new zero-emission vehicle sales by 2035 | California Air Resources Board

SACRAMENTO – The California Air Resources Board today approved the trailblazing Advanced Clean Cars II rule that sets California on a path to rapidly growing the zero-emission car, pickup truck and SUV market and deliver cleaner air and massive reductions in climate-warming pollution.

ww2.arb.ca.gov

I’ll take California’s lead any day. California is arguably the number 1 state or economy in the world driving innovation. Washington State is #2. NY state is number three. I’ll drink whatever innovation koolaid their serving any day of the week. And regulations drive innovation in many cases. Love it.

 

[studawg]

Not really. They do this for every car in the world, whether sold in the US or not. The EPA isn’t the boogeyman. Corporate profits are.

Corporate profits are a bad thing? Ok, comrade.

 

[Madtiger]

And regulations drive innovation in many cases. Love it.

Hmm, says no one….

 

[Markuson]

I’ll take California’s lead any day. California is arguably the number 1 state or economy in the world driving innovation. Washington State is #2. NY state is number three. I’ll drink whatever innovation koolaid their serving any day of the week. And regulations drive innovation in many cases. Love it.

Drinkin that koolaid, huh…
Californian here… but noooo thanks.

 

[stonepa]

Corporate profits are a bad thing? Ok, comrade.

Did I say they were a bad thing? Nope. But they drive automaker choices.

 

[stonepa]

Hmm, says no one….

Safety features, lighting, ABS, unleaded gasoline, low sulfur diesel, hybrid, electric drive, …

 

[Madtiger]

Safety features, lighting, ABS, unleaded gasoline, low sulfur diesel, hybrid, electric drive, …

How Regulation Wrecks Innovation

Many laws and regulations create direct or indirect barriers to the emergence of new ideas and organizations.

www.aier.org

Good article. It is a very complex relationship. Unfortunately, regulations often time are really the big boys in the industry setting their own play ground rules to kill off the newcomers with new ideas. Lobbyists from big companies with big budget write these regulations to protect their turf.

 

[skrypj]

Basically, they need to have a tire round enough to roll it out of the plant, on to the ship, and cost as little at scale as possible, and that looks cool enough to get you to buy the vehicle. Every single OEM does the same, from Kia to Rolls Royce.

But, not really. The offroad models from Ford, GM, Ram, Jeep etc are running General Grabbers ATX, Duratracs, Goodyear Territory MT's, KO2's and Wildpeaks AT3W's. And they are all offering anything from a 33" to possibly 37's(Bronco Raptor and F150 Raptor)right from the factory.

Toyota has always put relatively mild tires on even the TRD Pro trucks.

 

[stonepa]

How Regulation Wrecks Innovation

Many laws and regulations create direct or indirect barriers to the emergence of new ideas and organizations.

www.aier.org

Good article. It is a very complex relationship. Unfortunately, regulations often time are really the big boys in the industry setting their own play ground rules to kill off the newcomers with new ideas. Lobbyists from big companies with big budget write these regulations to protect their turf.

As someone who has made a living on ‘innovation ’, I have ZERO concerns about regulation as long as the regulations apply to everyone. Regulation in most cases acts as a set of guardrails to refine innovation. It provides a target and points investment dollars in the right direction. And if I can influence regulation myself I will certainly do it.

For instance, knowing what we know from a regs standpoint about EV targets, why would someone innovate around the internal combustion engine unless they had significant unrealized investments in old technology? This is why companies like BYD or a company like them will most likely own the future of powertrain while Toyota continues to push their highly mature hybrid technlogy.

 

[skrypj]

As someone who has made well over $100m on ‘innovation ’ and recently sold my latest company, I have ZERO concerns about regulation as long as the regulations apply to everyone. Regulation in most cases acts as a set of guardrails to refine innovation. It provides a target and points investment dollars in the right direction. And if I can influence regulation myself I will certainly do it.

For instance, knowing what we know from a regs standpoint about EV targets, why would someone innovate around the internal combustion engine unless they had significant unrealized investments in old technology? This is why companies like BYD or a company like them will most likely own the future of powertrain while Toyota continues to push their highly mature hybrid technlogy.

Toyota is slow with the EV's because they realized the demand simply isn't there yet. I own a Chevy Bolt and really love it but most people I talk to about it are petrified of EV's. They all ask me insane questions like how do I get to Salt Lake City and back(45 miles each way). Meanwhile I routinely drive 150+ miles on like 60% of the battery. Also, most people don't get it and don't have the knowledge to understand things like kW and kWh or even just battery percentage. We let my mother in law borrow it while my wife and I did a camping trip so she could cheaply drive the kids around. It wasn't 24 hours before she had nearly run that battery down because she couldn't wrap her head around the idea that its not an iPhone that she can plug in and have a full charge in 30 minutes at the house.

Look at all the other manufacturers trying to break into that space with fairly decent products but seeing very little success. They all got out over their skis and are now trying to reel it back. Either that or they were trying to collect as much subsidies from the governments as they could and were just talking the talk.

 

[bloc]

How is this on topic for factory tires?

 

[stonepa]

How is this on topic for factory tires?

Sidetrack due to people thinking it’s that dang guberment…

 

[skrypj]

How is this on topic for factory tires?

We already answered the original question. There is no good reason and other manufacturers are putting 35's and 37's tires on trucks from the factory which probably sell in higher numbers than the Land Cruiser did

 

[W4632018]

We already answered the original question. There is no good reason and other manufacturers are putting 35's and 37's tires on trucks from the factory which probably sell in higher numbers than the Land Cruiser did

The new GX overtrail comes with Toyo ATIII tires!

 

[Markuson]

Not really. They do this for every car in the world, whether sold in the US or not. The EPA isn’t the boogeyman. Corporate profits are.

*Any entity* with too much power tends to becomes a “boogeyman…”