Which oil are you using?

[Cruiserdrew]

I have been running Delo15w-40 in the 60 and 62, however, because of this issue, I switched the FJ62 to Mobil1 15w-50, which Mobil recommends for flat tappet motors on their website. When the 60 is due for a change, I'm not sure what I'll do.

It may not make any difference other than peace of mind.

With regards to the chemistry of the whole thing, I believe its the Phosphorus that's the problem for the catalyst not the Zinc.



My last summer brew for my FJ40 was 5 guarts of Chevron Supreme 20w-50 and 3 quarts of Valvoline Racing 20w-50 to try and bump the ZDDP content. Probably do the same this year.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Depends on the years you are talking about...early ones are discontinued.

For the 2F starting in 8/1980, then they are still available.

13901-61020: List: $141.21

Wait a second, Toyota made camshafts for these motor that came with roller lifters? Do they make roller lifters as well?

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Wait a second, Toyota made camshafts for these motor that came with roller lifters? Do they make roller lifters as well?

No. Never heard of roller lifters on these motors. I think Beno is thinking of a regular camshaft.

 

[OGBeno]

No. Never heard of roller lifters on these motors. I think Beno is thinking of a regular camshaft.

I assumed he was talking about the rocker shaft....

 

[deltapine1]

The lack of ZDDP typically has been associated with loss of camshaft lobes or lifter surfaces. There are probably more long term issues that have not cropped up yet.

It is sad that the EPA can mandate changes made because of "High mileage catalyst equipped vehicles." How many vehicles are actually on the road with worn out rings, guides, etc. that actually allow oil to be burned and discharged down the exhaust pipe?

I am stepping of the box now before I really get started.

I should also ask if anyone has had a failure as described above? I would think one of the daily drivers around would be a canidate.

I know a guy that drives his 68 Stang everyday and the CJ-4 oils got his flat tappet camshaft in around 8,000 miles.

 

[slcfj62]

Here is a snippet from the engine oil bible page located here:

Car Bibles : The Engine Oil Bible

I have bolded some interesting points.

QUOTE:

Phosphorus (a component of ZDDP - Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) is the key component for valve train protection in an engine and 1600ppm (parts per million) used to be the standard for phosphorus in engine oil. In 1996 the EPA forced that to be dropped to 800ppm and then more recently (2004?) to 400ppm - a quarter of the original spec. Valvetrains and their components are not especially cheap to replace and this drop in phosphorus content has been a problem for many engines (especially those with flat-tappet type cams). So why was the level dropped? Money. Next to lead, it's the second most destructive substance to shove through a catalytic converter. The US government mandated a 150,000 mile liftime on catalytic converters and the quickest way to do that was to drop phosphorous levels and bugger the valvetrain problem. Literally.

In the US, Mobil 1 originally came out with the 0W40 as a 'European Formula' as it was always above 1000 ppm. This initially got them out of the 1996 800ppm jam and knowledgeable consumers sought it out for obvious reasons. Their 15W50 has also maintained a very high level of phosphorus and all of the extended life Mobil synthetics now have at least 1000ppm. How do they get away with this? They're not classified as energy/fuel conserving oils and thus do not interfere with the precious government CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) ratings. (See my section on the EPA and fuel economy in the Fuel and Engine Bible for more info on this). This also means that they don't get the coveted ratings of other oils but they do protect your valvetrain. The same rule of thumb is true for racing oils like Royal Purple - because they're not classified as energy / fuel conserving, it would seem they still contain good quantities of ZDDP.

In fact, as a general rule-of-thumb, staying away from XX-30 oils and going to 10W-40 or higher might be the way to go if you have an older engine. 10W-40 and above is generally also not considered to be 'gas saving' and like the Mobil example above, don't mess with the CAFE rating.
If you live in England, Castrol market a product with ZDDP in the product description - 'Castrol Classic Oil With ZDDP Anti-Wear Additive' although it's not mainstream enough to be available everywhere. You'll have to find a specialist dealer. Castrol Classics. In the US, Rislone manufacture an oil supplement to boost the ZDDP content of your existing oil. Rislone Engine Oil Supplement.

Read more: Car Bibles : The Engine Oil Bible

 

[wagon4wd]

I should also ask if anyone has had a failure as described above? I would think one of the daily drivers around would be a canidate.

I know a guy that drives his 68 Stang everyday and the CJ-4 oils got his flat tappet camshaft in around 8,000 miles.

and engine number 2 (which replaced engine number 1 due to a cracked block) in my brother's cherokee lost its cam in about 7000 miles, and the engine builder went on a rant about oils and cams, but the shop that diagnosed the problem said it was due to something being installed wrong (cam bearing?). I'm sure we can find someone who didn't know about this problem and has had no problems with a fresh flat-tappet 350 that's racked up 60k.

As far as diesel oil goes, older diesel oils without the anti-foaming agents (which were required for HEUI which appeared in the early nineties) is almost impossible to find. CH-4 was the beginning of these oils, and CI-4 appeared before the drop in ZDDP. On the spark side, SL was before the change, SM was after.

 

[Zhenya]

I use this:

https://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?A=NO_75122_0274125856&An=0

Data: https://partimages.genpt.com/partimages/725904.pdf

 

[Spike Strip]

At least the OP prefaced this by stating it's been beaten to death...

All the oils listed above, with the exception of Amsoil HD, are SM and/or CJ rated, which means they are formulated for post 2007 emission requirements - that includes the M1 15w 50. I don't care what the Advertising propaganda says, if the oil is SM or CJ rated, don't use it. It does not have the additive package for your 2F motor. Particularly if you have a redone head with Chebby valve springs instead of old, stock springs.

Rotella T and Delo used to be great oils for these engines, but the old stocks dried up around a year ago and the new stuff is still a great oil, just not for your tractor.

The racing oils, depending on what they are and if they're really "racing" oils, generally have an additive package for very short OCIs, so the add pack wears out quickly.

The NAPA stuff above is Valvoline Fleet Diesel oil. It's interesting stuff as it is rated CJ-4 (post '07), but only SL (pre '07 sparker) ...

I currently run Castrol GTX Diesel 15w-40, still just API CI-4/SL rated and only 4.75 qt at Autodrone. Change it often. 2Fs are hard on oil.

.

 

[deltapine1]

i didn't know the Castrol is stil CI-4 API rated. That is spectacular news.

I do need o clarify there are two Pennzoil Racing Oils. the on you buy at the auto parts stores are not marked "For Off Road Use Only" and do not have the higher levels of ZDDP. The Pennzoil Racing Oil I am using is marked as such and has a gray label on a yellow bottle; 25W50.

I am sure there are other manufacturer's with "Off Road Use Only' labels and most likely have higher levels of ZDDP.

I agree changing oil often is cheaper than building a motor but if the oil put in the motor is incorrect it just shortened the life of the engine.

Sorry to whip a dead horse so to speak but I know many of us take pride in how durable our motors are.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

At least the OP prefaced this by stating it's been beaten to death...

All the oils listed above, with the exception of Amsoil HD, are SM and/or CJ rated, which means they are formulated for post 2007 emission requirements - that includes the M1 15w 50. I don't care what the Advertising propaganda says, if the oil is SM or CJ rated, don't use it. It does not have the additive package for your 2F motor. Particularly if you have a redone head with Chebby valve springs instead of old, stock springs.

Rotella T and Delo used to be great oils for these engines, but the old stocks dried up around a year ago and the new stuff is still a great oil, just not for your tractor.

The racing oils, depending on what they are and if they're really "racing" oils, generally have an additive package for very short OCIs, so the add pack wears out quickly.

The NAPA stuff above is Valvoline Fleet Diesel oil. It's interesting stuff as it is rated CJ-4 (post '07), but only SL (pre '07 sparker) ...

I currently run Castrol GTX Diesel 15w-40, still just API CI-4/SL rated and only 4.75 qt at Autodrone. Change it often. 2Fs are hard on oil.

Spike-Check out the Zinc and Phosphorus levels of the Mobil1 as referenced on the graph below. Clearly they are still quite high despite being rated SM. THere is a lot more to the SM rating than the zinc and phos levels. You may be confusing it with the GF4 current spec of modern cars which means I think, that you get the "starburst" which you don't with a lot of oils rated SM, but not GF3 or 4.


Anyway, here is actual data from Mobil's website, you may find interesting:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf




And, check out the Mobil 1 Racing 4T---Huge levels of Zn and Phos and still rated SM.

 

[dbleon]

I used to take the synthetic mobile 1 out of the wife's vehicle during oil changes and dump it right into the valve cover of the 2f. It loved it!!!!!

Fact of the matter: these rigs were designed to run anything you can find, so why even worry about it... the damn thing will outlast the owner.

On a side note, I really like rotella. If it's good in a 4 stroke race bike, I'm sure it will do in the cruiser.

 

[Zhenya]

Spike,
Thanks for the great info. I am trying to find the best oil and at least I am doing better than the 10w30 toyota poured in there once.....
So do I keep using the NAPA stuff or do I switch to the castrol?

At least the OP prefaced this by stating it's been beaten to death...

All the oils listed above, with the exception of Amsoil HD, are SM and/or CJ rated, which means they are formulated for post 2007 emission requirements - that includes the M1 15w 50. I don't care what the Advertising propaganda says, if the oil is SM or CJ rated, don't use it. It does not have the additive package for your 2F motor. Particularly if you have a redone head with Chebby valve springs instead of old, stock springs.

Rotella T and Delo used to be great oils for these engines, but the old stocks dried up around a year ago and the new stuff is still a great oil, just not for your tractor.

The racing oils, depending on what they are and if they're really "racing" oils, generally have an additive package for very short OCIs, so the add pack wears out quickly.

The NAPA stuff above is Valvoline Fleet Diesel oil. It's interesting stuff as it is rated CJ-4 (post '07), but only SL (pre '07 sparker) ...

I currently run Castrol GTX Diesel 15w-40, still just API CI-4/SL rated and only 4.75 qt at Autodrone. Change it often. 2Fs are hard on oil.

.

 

[Rigger]

Valvoline 10W-30 in the FJ62 (and the FJ40).

 

[Spike Strip]

Drew, I've seen that chart before and indeed, M1 15w50 is a great choice, but I believe the Castrol GTX is in the 1600 range, as are the other "off-road" M1 products on the chart. I can not at the moment, find that info, though .. But again, the M1 is SM rated which means its additive package is meant for a post 2007 vehicle. It's prolly great stuff and you very well may get 9 gazzillion miles off your engine running it. I dunno. I'm just saying from the countless hours of reading and my weak, but thorough Bio-chemisty background, I choose to run a different oil.

However, it's been a while since I've looked at that oil - What's the cost ?

And the API "Starburst" and "Doughtnut" are just voluntary quality marks that oil producers can stick on the bottle if they meed the APIs requirements for a specific oils' application... Kinda like a UL listing on your toaster. If the manufacturer wants to pay for the cert, they get the right to list it on the product, and the consumer is supposed to equate that with a certain level of quality. It has nothing to do with whether or not there's a difference in the SM rating of the oil.

Like I said:

 

[LB LandCruiser]

Valvoline Conventional Premium. 10W-30 in the winter and 20W-50 in the summer. 298,832 miles and still going.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Drew, I've seen that chart before and indeed, M1 15w50 is a great choice, but I believe the Castrol GTX is in the 1600 range, as are the other "off-road" M1 products on the chart. I can not at the moment, find that info, though .. But again, the M1 is SM rated which means its additive package is meant for a post 2007 vehicle. It's prolly great stuff and you very well may get 9 gazzillion miles off your engine running it. I dunno. I'm just saying from the countless hours of reading and my weak, but thorough Bio-chemisty background, I choose to run a different oil.

However, it's been a while since I've looked at that oil - What's the cost ?

And the API "Starburst" and "Doughtnut" are just voluntary quality marks that oil producers can stick on the bottle if they meed the APIs requirements for a specific oils' application... Kinda like a UL listing on your toaster. If the manufacturer wants to pay for the cert, they get the right to list it on the product, and the consumer is supposed to equate that with a certain level of quality. It has nothing to do with whether or not there's a difference in the SM rating of the oil.

Like I said:

Finding solid numbers is a real problem. Kudos to Mobil for publishing the raw numbers free of ad hype. I guess the better question is: Is the oil truly backwards compatible? Mobil states it's good for flat tappet cams, and that's a claim they don't have to make, but they do. I have read as well, that the Zn and Phos numbers do not tell the whole story.

Interestingly, Chevron says on their website that the new Delo 15w-40 SM CJ-4 is "fully" backwards compatible with "older" motors. That tells me they are pretty confident that it won't cause problems or they would face substantial liability for making that statement, and lots and lots of old diesel motors have flat tappet cams and solid lifters.

Totally a dead horse, but I am in full agreement that a GF4, SM, 5w-30 oil is likely a poor choice for a 2F. I think virtually any of the Heavy Duty 15w-40s are good choices even with the SM rating.

 

[S&S1stCruzer]

Here's a link to the TSB from Amsoil ZDDP levels and flat tappet cams etc...http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulletin/motoroil/tsb mo-2007-08-08 flat tappet.pdf

 

[Big Cruiser Guy]

Castrol GTX is the only oil I've used in my 1986 fj60 with stock 2F. We're at 219,000 miles and going strong. I'll never switch.

 

[lehiguy]

Here's a link to the TSB from Amsoil ZDDP levels and flat tappet cams etc...http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulletin/motoroil/tsb mo-2007-08-08 flat tappet.pdf

Thanks for that. I used to snicker whenever I heard the word Amsoil, but I have come to the conclusion that they really do know what they are doing. Their premix burns exceptionaly clean in my CR500 and my brother's KTMs. Furthermore, any comparison of the "white sheets" reveals that the stuff really works.