Wheel lug nuts: OK to use the flats for conical ? (2 Viewers)

[e9999]

The length of the tapers are far from being the same.

Rich, aren't you talking about the conical nuts for an alloy wheel?
We are talking about steel wheels here, apples and oranges...!
E

 

[e9999]

Couple points here worth noting.

Clamping force (wheel to hub pressure) is exactly the same regardless of the amount of contact surface area between the nut and wheel taper. This is determined by the stud thread pitch and the torque setting and is a separate issue from whether the nut taper and the wheel hole taper match.

Sounds like he's confirmed that that the tapers are the same, which means the washer nut will indeed provide the proper pressure between the nut and wheel, which is also very important to prevent loosening. This is all there is to the story about whether this is appropriate or not. I've not seen the washer nut as I have a manly 80, but it would seem to be industry practice to standardize that taper so that it can also be used if the vehicle has a compact spare with steel wheel. I'm not aware of any 80s with compact spares in any country, but I've seen this on other vehicles.

DougM

that's right. The only issue here, I think, was really to find out if the contact areas of the wheel and nut tapers would be reasonably well matched to avoid damage due to high localized stress. Seems OK to me.
E

 

[IdahoDoug]

Rich,

The extra length of the tapered section on the washer style is immaterial. It is simply "extra taper" that will not contact the steel wheel's tapered holes, nor is it needed. As long as the nut fully contacts the tapered lugnut holes on the steel wheel, and the taper angles match, that's all that is needed.

One thing I would do Eric, would be to carefully clean the tapered sections on the wheel and the nut as would be common practice for maximum reliability. Brake cleaner, etc. A lot of people here use antisieze on their lugs as I do, and it's extremely important that this be ONLY on the threads and NEVER on the tapered mating surfaces. Never on the tapers. The friction of the tapered surface is what prevents these nuts from loosening and any lube will degrade this "bond" significantly.

DougM

 

[e9999]

Rich,

The extra length of the tapered section on the washer style is immaterial. It is simply "extra taper" that will not contact the steel wheel's tapered holes, nor is it needed. As long as the nut fully contacts the tapered lugnut holes on the steel wheel, and the taper angles match, that's all that is needed.

One thing I would do Eric, would be to carefully clean the tapered sections on the wheel and the nut as would be common practice for maximum reliability. Brake cleaner, etc. A lot of people here use antisieze on their lugs as I do, and it's extremely important that this be ONLY on the threads and NEVER on the tapered mating surfaces. Never on the tapers. The friction of the tapered surface is what prevents these nuts from loosening and any lube will degrade this "bond" significantly.

DougM

good point on cleaning it all well
E

 

[Rich]

Rich,
The extra length of the tapered section on the washer style is immaterial. DougM

Doug,

You have it backwards. The taper on the stock lugnuts that Toyota supplies for wheels with tapered lug holes is almost 3x longer than the taper on the lugnut Eric is using. I woudl guess that the difference in taper length is very material as there is likely a big difference in the contact area and the resulting material loading on both the lugnut and the wheel where they contact each other.

On stock '94 LC 80 wheels all or almost all of that longer taper is in contact with the wheel, to the best of my ability to visually ascertain.

 

[cruiserdan]

I don't think that anybody has mentioned the fact that the captive washers on the shank lugs are gonna bang around because there is nothing holding them stationary. That can't be a good thing, can it?

 

[robbie]

So I am here at work today and I took a stock toyota steel rim and a stock late model lug nut with washer. the rim is mounted on the vechicle and I ran the LMLN into the hole and the contact area is way into the taper area, real close to the end of the hole. With no shoulder outside the taper hole. While I think this may be ok for a spare to get you by, I think this may be deadly over time, fatigue could set in on the taper on the inner 1/3 of the hole, allow the steel to fail. You do have the washer to save you when it fail, You may want to rethink this. Enough said here. later robbie

 

[IdahoDoug]

Hmm, operating at a disadvantage w/o a newer lugnut around so it sounds like the older style has more taper face than the newer, eh? Thanks for clarifying, Rich.

If the steel wheel he's using has full contact from the lugnut over it's entire lug hole taper (as he's stated is the case), then he's good to go. It may look funny, the washers may rattle, but that's the pass/fail determination in my mind.

DougM

 

[e9999]

Doug,

You have it backwards. The taper on the stock lugnuts that Toyota supplies for wheels with tapered lug holes is almost 3x longer than the taper on the lugnut Eric is using. I woudl guess that the difference in taper length is very material as there is likely a big difference in the contact area and the resulting material loading on both the lugnut and the wheel where they contact each other.

On stock '94 LC 80 wheels all or almost all of that longer taper is in contact with the wheel, to the best of my ability to visually ascertain.

Rich, unless I misunderstood your statement earlier, you are looking at the tapered hole on an alloy wheel which is much thicker than the steel wheel. If you use the tapered nut for alloys you seem to be talking about, but on the steel wheels I have, most of this nut taper will not even touch the steel, it'll just stick out useless.

E

 

[e9999]

I don't think that anybody has mentioned the fact that the captive washers on the shank lugs are gonna bang around because there is nothing holding them stationary. That can't be a good thing, can it?

could just make some noise, but I didn't hear a peep when trying them out.
E

 

[e9999]

So I am here at work today and I took a stock toyota steel rim and a stock late model lug nut with washer. the rim is mounted on the vechicle and I ran the LMLN into the hole and the contact area is way into the taper area, real close to the end of the hole. With no shoulder outside the taper hole. While I think this may be ok for a spare to get you by, I think this may be deadly over time, fatigue could set in on the taper on the inner 1/3 of the hole, allow the steel to fail. You do have the washer to save you when it fail, You may want to rethink this. Enough said here. later robbie

Thanks for checking, Robbie. All I can say is that what you see is not what I saw with my wheels and nuts. Most of the nut taper is in the hole, but there is more outside still that is unused. And the contact is on the thicker side of the taper. Maybe the difference is between Tundra and LC wheels? But I sure appreciate the warning and info.
Interesting discussion!

Eric

 

[cruiserdan]

Suit yerself.

I stock wheel studs and nuts so I can supply new ones when the time comes


Oh, I saw an 80 one time that lost the RF wheel whilst on the freeway. (after it came into the shop on a hook).

Front axle housing
RH knuckle
RH spindle
RH caliper
RH steering arm
Drive flange
RH inner axle shaft
RH Birf
Wheel
Tire
Studs
Nuts
Hub
RH fender
RH fender flare
RF door shell
RR door shell
RR door flare.
Driver's seat cushion cover...

AND a hefty labor/bodyshop bill

 

[Riley]

Seems wierd to me..... +20 hours on nutserts OR 80 bucks on new lugnuts.....

new lugnuts = 80 bucks
safety for the family = priceless

It's worth the 80 bucks just to chat with Dan for 10 minutes placing the order

That reminds me, I need to think of some parts to buy.

 

[e9999]

Suit yerself.

I stock wheel studs and nuts so I can supply new ones when the time comes


Oh, I saw an 80 one time that lost the RF wheel whilst on the freeway. (after it came into the shop on a hook).

Front axle housing
RH knuckle
RH spindle
RH caliper
RH steering arm
Drive flange
RH inner axle shaft
RH Birf
Wheel
Tire
Studs
Nuts
Hub
RH fender
RH fender flare
RF door shell
RR door shell
RR door flare.
Driver's seat cushion cover...

AND a hefty labor/bodyshop bill

thanks for the reminder, Dan.

I am touched (sniffle!) that all of you care enough to point out repeatedly something that you think is not safe.

What can I say, I'm just flabbergasted by this whole thread...! I'm listening carefully, but what I see in the garage is completely different from what I'm reading here. Even for the very conservative anal me, I can't figure out why this would be unsafe or would not work. None of the warnings I was kindly provided with seems to jibe with what's in front of me. I can't figure out why getting a conical lug nut with a much bigger taper would do any good. For crying out loud, most of it will be out in the air, unused!

I gotta get myself one of these magical conical nuts and see why they are so different, I guess. Dan?

E

 

[cruiserdan]

OK Eric,


I do agree that the shank-type alloy lug nuts have a tapered seat end. That end is intended to be used as a TEMPORARY fastener until the original tire can be repaired or replaced. It IS NOT intended to be a permanent steel wheel fastener.


Trust me.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Well, you've seen me do this in past discussions when information comes to light and I am changing my mind on this also. Cdan's post above got me thinking about the temp vs permanent fastener and suddenly it occurred to me I've neglected one variable here - that of material. Sure, the mating of the faces and the torque are the key to getting the wheel assembly properly on, but long term use brings in the material.

If Toyota did not intend that tapered face to be a long term solution, then it may not be the hardness rating they'd make the taper of were it intended as a normal fastening surface. Personally, I cannot imagine that this could be the case, but what if? What if the material is a bit softer because it was intended to provide its fastening by the washer and fit of the barrel into the alloy wheel hole, and over time the taper would give/wear and loosen? Dunno. But to me the needle just moved a long ways and it may indeed be best to get the proper lugnuts as I simply cannot think of a way to verify the lugnut fastener in this respect short of actual metallurgical testing.

So, another vote to get the proper nuts.

DougM

 

[e9999]

OK Eric,


I do agree that the shank-type alloy lug nuts have a tapered seat end. That end is intended to be used as a TEMPORARY fastener until the original tire can be repaired or replaced. It IS NOT intended to be a permanent steel wheel fastener.


Trust me.

I do. Where did you see the above? I thought the tapered end on the shank nut was just to help get them in the wheel holes.

E

 

[e9999]

Well, you've seen me do this in past discussions when information comes to light and I am changing my mind on this also. Cdan's post above got me thinking about the temp vs permanent fastener and suddenly it occurred to me I've neglected one variable here - that of material. Sure, the mating of the faces and the torque are the key to getting the wheel assembly properly on, but long term use brings in the material.

If Toyota did not intend that tapered face to be a long term solution, then it may not be the hardness rating they'd make the taper of were it intended as a normal fastening surface. Personally, I cannot imagine that this could be the case, but what if? What if the material is a bit softer because it was intended to provide its fastening by the washer and fit of the barrel into the alloy wheel hole, and over time the taper would give/wear and loosen? Dunno. But to me the needle just moved a long ways and it may indeed be best to get the proper lugnuts as I simply cannot think of a way to verify the lugnut fastener in this respect short of actual metallurgical testing.

So, another vote to get the proper nuts.

DougM

yes, the material could be inadequate for the steel application. Unlikely, but possible.

E

 

[e9999]

Eric,
I am not sure what you are saying about the different ends here but having seen my 33x 12.50 pro comp x terrains bouncing across the road and into a feild at 35 mph I would say just get some new lug nots that are the right type. not worth messing around with in my gumble opinion.
Dave

Hi Dave:
what was the cause for the problem?
E

 

[e9999]

Suit yerself.

I stock wheel studs and nuts so I can supply new ones when the time comes


Oh, I saw an 80 one time that lost the RF wheel whilst on the freeway. (after it came into the shop on a hook).

Front axle housing
RH knuckle
RH spindle
RH caliper
RH steering arm
Drive flange
RH inner axle shaft
RH Birf
Wheel
Tire
Studs
Nuts
Hub
RH fender
RH fender flare
RF door shell
RR door shell
RR door flare.
Driver's seat cushion cover...

AND a hefty labor/bodyshop bill

what caused the wheel to be lost?

E