water/methanol injection systems

[scottryana]

Well sounds like it is ok on the TRD setup than. I would have had my suspicions but with 113,000 miles and 12 years on the setup I would say it is good to go!

Injecting pre compressor gives the added benefit of cooling the supercharger down as well. There are as many opinions on this as their are options.

When I did my system I did not want to rely on the meth as a tuning agent or as an octane booster in the off chance; that the pump dies, a filter clogs, I run out of methanol, etc. So I planned my system as a charge cooler and if there is a little added benefit of increased octane that is great. Others like yourself needed the methanol for the extra fuel and that means your layout is a much more vital component to the system and also means you need to be much more diligent with mixing methanol, etc. This is not unlike the guys that use E85 to turn their timing way up, it is great when it is truly E85, but in the winter when it is more like E60 if they don't adjust their tune they have issues.

Each system will have it's quirks, will there be an Intercooler? OBDI or OBDII? Max power or Max reliability? Mix my own water/meth or use windshield washer fluid? What do I want to happen if the system runs out?

So like I said the folks on here like yourself are quite smart and can take all the options and formulate what works best for how they want their truck to work.

 

[CycloSteve]

Anything greater than 50% Methanol is still flammable, just like 100 proof whisky. I used to blend my own for my SC Audi, and always erred on the side of more water for that exact reason.

 

[scottryana]

If your ethanol percentage was increased I would expect less charge cooling, and more fuel effect. You would have higher octane and more resistance to detonation. I would assume Kenndy's checked your AFR and that is why they put you on a 14gph 50/50 mix. There wouldn't be any benefit to going too rich. But there is a lot of assumptions in there. There are many that run 100% methanol injection in situations that require maximum detonation protection. But you would lose some of your charge cooling capacity. Enthalpy of heat is about 1/2 of what water is for methanol.

But you could go to a smaller nozzle and your methanol would last longer.


***Edited This was assuming your water was increased not ethanol***

Well it is hard to say in your situation, if your mix is 50/50 and you are running 14GPH you are running 7GPH of methanol so about 44cc/min. The stock fuel injectors are around 300cc/min and I am sure don't run at 100% injector duty cycle so at 80% you are getting around 1440cc/min of fuel from your injectors and about 44cc/min of fuel from your water/meth setup.

So you would run lean, but probably not to the point of kaboom.

The problem I would be worried about is that water is not compressible and the close tolerances on the blades would be trying to compress it. I think you would just end up with much accelerated wear on the blades.

Good to know. I have never been in that situation.

What would you expect to see if the methanol ratio was increased. Say 75% or greater? Maybe straight?

Kaboom?

 

[cruiserdan]

No.....Increase the methanol ratio. Less water.

 

[scottryana]

Yes sorry I edited the post. I misread your original question.

 

[cruiserdan]

Anything greater than 50% Methanol is still flammable, just like 100 proof whisky. I used to blend my own for my SC Audi, and always erred on the side of more water for that exact reason.

At 50% it will burn. I stuck a paper towel in the jar, pulled it out and put a match to it. Flammo.

 

[cruiserdan]

Yes sorry I edited the post. I misread your original question.

To confirm then, more than 50% methanol would not be beneficial?

Kennedy based their recommendations on the 1FZ displacement and the type of blower. The base kit was intended for supercharged 5.0 Mustangs. The RPM was dialed down and the nozzle enlarged slightly.

 

[scottryana]

If Kennedy's setup your system and dialed in the AFR using a wideband on the dyno so that at 3100rpms and at 50/50 mix of water and methanol and your setup gives you the correct Air to Fuel ratio than no in my opinion more meth would not be beneficial.

If they just thew the system together with whatever nozzle they had laying around and you are in fact still running a little lean than yes it could be beneficial.

Like I said lots of assumptions and almost impossible to tell without more information. But I would say given the fact that it has lasted 113,000 miles it is a pretty good testament to the fact they they probably didn't just throw it together.

I would also say that given the fact the components are 12 years old, it would not hurt at all to go back in and have it strapped to the dyno and tested again to make sure it is still maintaining the correct AFR.

To confirm then, more than 50% methanol would not be beneficial?

 

[cruiserdan]

Well I guess it was blind luck. They are in New York and I am in New Mexico. They never touched the truck. It was all based on their over-all tuning experience. The truck doesn't even know what a dyno looks like.

 

[dogfishlake]

My blower just came back from overhaul at PSE. It had 113,000 miles on it with meth/water the whole time. The rotors looked pretty good to me when I pulled it and Ed said the rotors were in excellent condition.

That's great. I love the idea of cooling the supercharger, it would give the smaller pulley a chance to help performance. I wouldn't go much smaller on pulley with the chance of running out of mix, but a 3" or so might be fine. Don't you run a smaller pulley?

 

[cruiserdan]

3.0 inch. Original is 3.2 inch.

 

[scottryana]

Haha so you could be running overly rich and could use less methanol.

These engines are so strong you have a very large window but I am kind of OCD so I don't like playing the not knowing game. lol.

Well I guess it was blind luck. They are in New York and I am in New Mexico. They never touched the truck. It was all based on their over-all tuning experience. The truck doesn't even know what a dyno looks like.

 

[murf]

Im not sure why the concern of running out of methanol mix? I doubt anyone with a LC is having it run all the time anyway. Ive run out and it still drives just fine even at 11 degrees base idle and warm ambient temps I dont get any excessive detonation. I had to fiddle with different timing settings where I pushed the timing but didnt have to rely on the meth from keeping from overly detonating (running 91 octane) at hard throttle. That wouldnt apply to any DD vehicle imo, you'd have to carry a massive tank of meth mix so you wouldnt run out!

The stories Ive read about blowing engines up that run out of meth are drag strip - crazy tuned/ hi power/ maxed out blown engines that depend on the full flow of meth to keep the extreme advanced timing from detonating to the point of damaging the engine. They crank the timing to squeeze that last extra power out of the engine and are riding the edge for a short distance.

Our tractor engines are in a different category - lol. I am glad to hear of Dans long term results because I also run a 50/50 mix with distilled and never intended to change the pre-SC injection anyway.

 

[CycloSteve]

At 50% it will burn. I stuck a paper towel in the jar, pulled it out and put a match to it. Flammo.

50% by volume is the issue. Methanol has a lower specific gravity than water. 50% methanol by volume is about 45% by weight which gives a more safe mixture. Will that still burn? Never tried, but less likely.

 

[scottryana]

Your tractor engine that is OBDII is different. The OBDI trucks like CDan's are using the meth as a fuel source because they run lean under boost. That is why they are running such a large nozzle and it is more important.

If you have a good AFR without the Meth, the only thing you really need is cooling you would be fine on straight water, if like you said you have no detonation without the meth, the meth in your case is unnecessary and why you have no fear of running out.

Im not sure why the concern of running out of methanol mix? I doubt anyone with a LC is having it run all the time anyway. Ive run out and it still drives just fine even at 11 degrees base idle and warm ambient temps I dont get any excessive detonation. I had to fiddle with different timing settings where I pushed the timing but didnt have to rely on the meth from keeping from overly detonating (running 91 octane) at hard throttle. That wouldnt apply to any DD vehicle imo, you'd have to carry a massive tank of meth mix so you wouldnt run out!

The stories Ive read about blowing engines up that run out of meth are drag strip - crazy tuned/ hi power/ maxed out blown engines that depend on the full flow of meth to keep the extreme advanced timing from detonating to the point of damaging the engine. They crank the timing to squeeze that last extra power out of the engine and are riding the edge for a short distance.

Our tractor engines are in a different category - lol. I am glad to hear of Dans long term results because I also run a 50/50 mix with distilled and never intended to change the pre-SC injection anyway.

 

[cruiserdan]

50% by volume is the issue. Methanol has a lower specific gravity than water. 50% methanol by volume is about 45% by weight which gives a more safe mixture. Will that still burn? Never tried, but less likely.

A match lights it at 50% by volume.

 

[izzyandsue]

I got to say something here. Every time I see the title of this post, my brain reads "watermelon".

 

[dogfishlake]

Ha! I think water/ methanol is processed from watermelon! Maybe I'm wrong

 

[inkpot]

So what percentage of watermelon juice is meth?

 

[dogfishlake]

The seedless kind are only 18%. The old school seeded kind are 30% . I don't really know, but I did sleep at a holiday Inn express last night