VIN and swapping out parts...question about title. (1 Viewer)

[sproggy]

So, if I have a title, registered truck with VINxxxxx and I buy another truck with no title and unite them, that is swap frames, engines, tubs, etc...when do I start running afoul of title issues, if ever? I seem to recall reading on here that the VIN on the frame (isn't there one?) is the ultimate proof of the VIN. But gee, in these trucks where everything has been redone or pieces cut out, covered over, modified, etc... how in fact is the VIN tracked?
Case in point: Could I swap a frame from an untitled donor truck with my currently registered and titled truck and be legal?

 

[Nas90tdi]

That's a yes and no question. Lot's more information would be needed to honestly answer that question.
First, where are you? That makes a huge difference.
Frame VIN is typically the identifying VIN. However, frames can be swapped. 2 ways to do that. Get frame re stamped and certified by whatever local authority does that wherever you are. It's different in various states. Or do nothing and depend on the VIN on firewall to identify. I view that as a bad idea since the frame has a different VIN. Making proving providence of the vehicle much harder if it ever comes up because now the vehicle has 2 legitimate VINs on it. Just because the second vehicle doesn't have a title doesn't mean that VIN isn't in the system.
I have completely replaced several Land Rover frames with new. VIN on the firewall and brake booster suffices in those instances in some states, not in others. But, that is an entire new, after market frame that I have a receipt for the purchase of. So, slightly different than swapping stamped frames.

Also, you would most likely have to get a title for the untitled frame to put it under the truck you intend to drive. The other direction would be simpler as the frame VIN is the main VIN on the vehicle typically.

Best bet is go to your local Highway Patrol or licensing office and ask them. You might have to ask the question several times of various people to track down the actual answer as it applies to your state. Most people in a government office are often not actually familiar with the legalities of a frame swap and will just tell you it's illegal. That is seldom the case, it just requires you to do your homework.

 

[bikersmurf]

Nas90tdi is correct, a lot depends on local laws.

Locally, a vehicle cannot be bought or sold without a proof of ownership. Papers can be got for any vehicle if you know the name of the registered owner. There is a process to legally get a title for a vehicle that you don't know the owner of... but it is a pain.

Here, the frame number isn't attached to the registration, or even factored in in any way... That said, I've made sure to keep all documents related to the purchase of the replacement frame under my rig from a reputable Auto wrecker, with the Frame number documented on the receipt. 25 years later, I've had no problems, I also have photo's of the frame swap.

The risk you run of building a rig using another donor rig without proof of ownership of the donor could lead to your rig being seized by the authorities and being charged for possession of stolen property.

Another possibility is that parts are tacked down to a stolen vehicle, your vin is flagged, and your vehicle cannot be registered or insured.

So... be sure to have documents to prove your legal right to your donor vehicle.

 

[ToyotaMatt]

So, if I have a title, registered truck with VINxxxxx and I buy another truck with no title and unite them, that is swap frames, engines, tubs, etc...when do I start running afoul of title issues, if ever? I seem to recall reading on here that the VIN on the frame (isn't there one?) is the ultimate proof of the VIN. But gee, in these trucks where everything has been redone or pieces cut out, covered over, modified, etc... how in fact is the VIN tracked?
Case in point: Could I swap a frame from an untitled donor truck with my currently registered and titled truck and be legal?

The average person , automotive safety Inspector , or insurance claims adjuster has no idea about the or locations of the Frame

# on the RH FT passenger side frame rail , That's a Toyota Thing , What they are looking for is the Drivers Side windshield VIN

17 digit strip tag , They did not start till 1981 , so Next

would be the A-Pillar / Drivers Door Jamb Aluminum Plate , if need be , Next they would pp the Hood and Look to

the RH Inner Fender or Firewall DATA ID Plate , Your 7/71 @sproggy would of had both ID plates originally , held in place by OEM-Type Rivets Or sheet metal screws

as long as u have both matching plates and a registration card & insurance u should be OK


Something like these :


DATA I.D. Plates Tags & Engraving Service

 

[numby]

...But gee, in these trucks where everything has been redone or pieces cut out, covered over, modified, etc... how in fact is the VIN tracked?
Case in point: Could I swap a frame from an untitled donor truck with my currently registered and titled truck and be legal?

Yeah even the best restorations these days are hodge-podge amalgams of differing years and models. Think mini-truck power steering, full float rear ends, diesel or crate motors, etc. I mean whose hard top is really on your truck anyway? This is standard practice in U.S. auto repair so, beyond the data plate, it's anyones guess - or assertion - as to the year and model of any particular vehicle.

I have never had anyone at the DMV look beyond the data plate on the door frame in any of the states I registered my 40 in and that was only once in Oregon years ago. Last time I moved back no one even came out to look at the vehicle. Unfortunately that does not bode well for someone that has a cherished rig ripped off and parted out to dozen of different buyers. Stamped numbers on frames and engines are easily ground off as well. Criminals do it with guns all the time. It's illegal but maybe not as bad as getting caught with a known stolen firearm. I don't think it's even possible to read the frame number on my truck do to wear and corrosion. If my 40 is stolen I may have a hard time proving to the authorities/insurance company that it's mine.

If you've legally purchased a frame not as the starting point for a new vehicle (for which you'd need a title), but as a replacement for a problematic existing vehicle you already own then I might suggest simply cutting a small piece of the donor frame with the vin number out and replace it with the vin section from your original damaged frame. And keep all your receipts.

 

[shelfboy1]

i agree with the above post just dont tell the internet what your doing or any of your friends

 

[sproggy]

Thanks people. I do think it is much easier since I already have an fj40 in the system. All the times I take it on and off the road, registered, insured etc....no one has ever looked at anything. They just pull the old records up on the computer. And this seems to me as it should be. So if I swapped the frame or parts of the frame or anything else I can't see it being an issue unless yes, it got stolen. And like Numby I don't even think my frame VIN is readable. But if it is, welding the registered number to a donor frame seems like a swell idea. Of course, if one can see the weld marks...starts to look even MORE suspicious. I always chuckle when they ask me how many miles it has on it. I've swapped out the cluster so many times, rebuilt them, swapped out again, broken....couldn't for the life of me say but the reading of 5650 seems mighty low for a 50 year old vehicle. Well, grandma didn't drive much....

 

[Living in the Past]

Seventeen digit VIN started with the 81 model on the FJ40. The extra digits we're only on the VIN plaques not stamped into the frame.

In 71 the under the hood VIN was attached to the passenger's fender and held on with sheet metal screws. Wasn't until the 78 model the under the hood plaque moved back to the firewall and for the first time pop rivots we're used. Until the mid sixties the under the hood plaque was on the firewall and machine screws and nuts were used. The A pillar started 3/69 in the US market and those always used pop rivots.

 

[1969FJ]

This has come up many times and everyone is correct so far. The frame number stamped into the front frame rail IS the VIN number. However, frames can rust out and it is almost always in the rear and under the body. The frame rails seem to survive better. That said , I have seen various tactics to be in state compliance. One is to take a donor frame and weld on the frame rails from the one to be registered. Another is to just use a good frame and just cut the square VIN stamp one from the other. As @RAGINGMATT said, body VIN tags are an easy thing to do using rivets. ( His plates are also very nice and I would put his in as they look better than new). The FJ40 seems to be in a grey area with all this compliance because it does not fit what most DMVs are used to.
I remember years ago a friend had an FJ40 and during the warranty period the dealer made a mistake and allowed the vehicle to drop from the lift and it damaged the frame pretty bad. He requested a NEW frame and got it. Funny thing, the Toyota replacement frame had no frame stamp and if I recall, the dealer never stamped it either. I never knew where this went , if anywhere.