V35A-FTS bearing issue?

[Oakleyguy]

The timeline read is interesting; hopefully that helps dispel the impression that Toyota was just sitting on their hands. They've been monitoring and investigating this since March 2022.

Looks like they identified around 800-1000 failures:
"As of May 20, 2024, based on a diligent review of records, Toyota’s best engineering judgement is that there are 166 Toyota Field Technical Reports and 824 warranty claims on the engines in the subject vehicles that have been received from U.S. sources that relate or may relate to this condition and which were considered in the decision to submit this report."

 

[rexington14]

More interestingly, we now have an official number of how prevalent these failures have been to date (824 total)

However, the key piece of information, and what probably directly led Toyota to the decision to file a voluntary safety recall, is that even in some of the "good" engines that they recovered to study, they detected bearing damage and unacceptable levels of debris which may cause a failure in the future.

I'd be interested in the data of how the 824 failure cases presented. How many engines presented with engine knocking / rough running, versus how many engines were running with no symptoms until the engine suddenly blew up during vehicle operation?

 

[TXSunDevil]

I am now curious how many 2024s out there have this issue. Admittedly I just heard of this issue this week after longing over the new GX for a few months.

 

[OSS]

Definitely I’d wait a year for the 2025 models of any vehicle that uses this cursed engine

 

[LX4x4]

There seems to be a stop sale on various 2024 vehicles at the port.

 

[M1911]

There seems to be a stop sale on various 2024 vehicles at the port.

There is a stop sale on the LC 250, but that doesn't have the V35A-FTS, so that is an unrelated issue. It isn't clear to me yet what that stop sale is for.

 

[malden]

With what we know now buying any one of the 250, 550 or 4Runner in the first year seems like begging for punishment and with what upside? None, really.

 

[1NTRANSIT]

With what we know now buying any one of the 250, 550 or 4Runner in the first year seems like begging for punishment and with what upside? None, really.

I’ve had the 250/550 fever bad since debut, and I’ve always been a proponent of not pursuing a vehicle until the quirks are well known and/or remedied. But that damn fever…

We’re also a ways away from knowing what surprises the 4hybrid has in store.

 

[LX4x4]

With what we know now buying any one of the 250, 550 or 4Runner in the first year seems like begging for punishment and with what upside? None, really.

it depends if the buyer believe toyota's explanation that it only affected a batch of engines. Or is it actually a design flaw that will manifest at some point.

 

[OSS]

Toyota claims the problem was caused by a procedural flaw - inadequate flushing of the engine block after machining which left metal shavings debris still in the engine

 

[Tigerstripe40]

I am wondering about the description of the problem here.

Wouldn't debris in the engine block after machining cause all of the mains to fail?
On every modern Toyota engine I've torn down, the oil pump is driven off the crankshaft, and the #1 main bearing is the first thing to get oil. Wouldn't debris left in the block effecting the #1 main bearing oiling also effect the rest of the mains?

 

[lawrence1]

i guess time will tell if this was the real issue. given the 2024 failures reported, i'm a bit skeptical of the narrative presented by Toyota.

 

[Jetboy]

I am wondering about the description of the problem here.

Wouldn't debris in the engine block after machining cause all of the mains to fail?
On every modern Toyota engine I've torn down, the oil pump is driven off the crankshaft, and the #1 main bearing is the first thing to get oil. Wouldn't debris left in the block effecting the #1 main bearing oiling also effect the rest of the mains?

I had the same thought. The image of the oil flow shows an oil flow entering the main bearing oil chamber that distributes oil to the bearings as entering in the middle, but I don't know if that's accurate or just for visual representation.

My thought on how that could happen is if they machine the engine and flush it on some sort of multi axis rotating machine it could be possible that the flush process ends up flushing machining debris into a spot near the front main bearing where it is deposited and not flushed out of the block. Like if the fluid flow has an eddy current there that deposits shavings instead of flushing them out or they hang it with the front down and it drains that direction and they all end up deposited right at front.

I'd think that when they design the process to do the flush they would start by using a scope and/or xray imaging to verify that the process is doing a thorough cleaning. Toyota's been in this game a very long time. They know how to do it right. It's surprising that this would be an issue they wouldn't have identified right away.

 

[OSS]

We don’t and never will know the location of the swarf in the block at final assembly. It’s possible that there was a hidden pocket of the stuff just upstream of the front bearing- which took the brunt of contamination

 

[GBman]

So let’s take bets is my GX550 a timebomb? I feel like most of the Toyotas I’ve had recently have been subject to an impending recall between this and the airbag fiasco.

 

[OSS]

So let’s take bets is my GX550 a timebomb? I feel like most of the Toyotas I’ve had recently have been subject to an impending recall between this and the airbag fiasco.

Definitely join Automobile Club of America. (AAA).
And it would be wise to be prepared just in case something happens when you’re out on the road

 

[concretejungle]

I was at the local dealership getting my 200 serviced last week and was walking around. They had about 38 tundras on the lot when I stopped counting. When I asked the salesman about the motor issue he just said they had a casting defect and that was just a small run......

 

[Phillyd2]

So, say you got a few thousand miles on your truck and oil analysis shows no metal are you then good to go or may the issue still manifest itself later?

 

[Tigerstripe40]

Definitely join Automobile Club of America. (AAA).
And it would be wise to be prepared just in case something happens when you’re out on the road

Lexus vehicles come with roadside assistance for 4 years after purchase. 2 years if certified pre-owned.

https://support.lexus.com/s/article/What-is-Lexus-Roadsid-8742

 

[Jetboy]

So, say you got a few thousand miles on your truck and oil analysis shows no metal are you then good to go or may the issue still manifest itself later?

Just speculation, but I don't think we know yet what the real mode of failure is. Immediately preceding a failure there should be a lot of wear metals in the oil filter and in the analysis. But if these are happening rapidly in a scenario where a large contaminant particle flows into the bearing - it might only be a few hundred miles from when the contamination enters the bearing and the complete failure occurs. I think it's safe to say that the deeply scarred bearings I've seen in some photos were not in that condition very long. If those occurred at 30k miles, I think it's pretty unlikely that they were spinning in that condition since low mileage. The ones failing at 5k miles - seems like that could have been an issue since new.

One difficult thing to know without Toyota's root cause analysis or someone who's torn them down taking very close up images is how they failed. Was it oil starvation and metal to metal contact or was it a foreign object? If it's a case where the foreign material is clogging the oil passage way and reducing oil flow - those engines might run great potentially forever until you stress the engine with high loads and high heat and then you'd exceed the reduced oil flow lubricating capacity. So - in that case you might see no issues in the oil analysis and then have a rapid thermal runaway on a bearing with a catastrophic failure within short time.

I think we'll have to wait for Toyota to tell us what they're looking for to identify a potential failure before we will know much about how to test or identify a problematic engine. Maybe Toyota will tell us. Maybe they won't. I've worked on a few root cause analysis of big complex machinery failures that the best experts in the world could never figure out what happened (powerplant generator failures) - especially when the failure is catastrophic and everything melts together. It can be like trying to figure out what shape an ice cube was by looking at the pool of water after it melted. In this case - I think Toyota will be able to figure it out and probably already has. Just not sure if they'll tell us in detail and/or publish some sort of test guide to identify problem engines.

I tend to think that the best chance of identifying a bad engine early would be to run it hard under load. Tow a heavy trailer up a steep pass on a hot day. Then test the oil. If the oil film is breaking down - that seems like the most likely time it'll happen. I'm not sure there's much more you could really do to test it without taking it apart.