V35A-FTS bearing issue?

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Toyota has one of the most sophisticated and studied quality control programs in the world...as @OGBeno has stated in the past, every single one of those parts has been cataloged and tracked.

Having worked a bit with TQM and SPC (in a previous career path), I've had a chance to chat with some of their folks in operations research, engineering, quality management, etc working for them..it wouldn't take much for them to correlate the part numbers of affected engines to build date, vendor, shift working, yada yada.

If I was worried about this issue, I would have cancelled my OT+ order, which I have not..I'm more annoyed it has taken this long
 
Toyota has one of the most sophisticated and studied quality control programs in the world...as @OGBeno has stated in the past, every single one of those parts has been cataloged and tracked.

Having worked a bit with TQM and SPC (in a previous career path), I've had a chance to chat with some of their folks in operations research, engineering, quality management, etc working for them..it wouldn't take much for them to correlate the part numbers of affected engines to build date, vendor, shift working, yada yada.

If I was worried about this issue, I would have cancelled my OT+ order, which I have not..I'm more annoyed it has taken this long
It just depends on if the problem is due to a specific plant, vendor, batch of aluminum, batch of cleaners, shift, machine, or worker, or just truly a random problem caused by a manufacturing process that was not reliable at removing debris. If it is the latter, there would be no way to know which vehicles are affected.

As more of the engines fail Toyota will get more data and hopefully identify a pattern. I'm guessing there are a ton of variables, so only ~900 failed engines might not be enough to ID a pattern.
 
It just depends on if the problem is due to a specific plant, vendor, batch of aluminum, batch of cleaners, shift, machine, or worker, or just truly a random problem caused by a manufacturing process that was not reliable at removing debris. If it is the latter, there would be no way to know which vehicles are affected.

As more of the engines fail Toyota will get more data and hopefully identify a pattern. I'm guessing there are a ton of variables, so only ~900 failed engines might not be enough to ID a pattern.

Even if it was a random mfg process, you can block the earliest and latest window of known failures then use statistics to identify w/ some confidence on what other engines may also be impacted.

Yes, statistically you will get a population of random defects that are naturally occurring, but TQM/SPC uses some fairly advanced distributions to help address your valid concerns above.
 
Potential new car buyer’s concern:

“Oh that’s the car that has the engine in it that blows up”

It’s going to take a lot of damage control from Toyota to try to erase this perception
 
They are being cheapskates. The “best” solution is for them to develop a prebuilt crate engine.
When the contaminated old engine seizes, it gets towed to the dealership and they swap out the entire engine assembly in a day or two. Done.
The way they’re doing it now is an absolute nightmare. Every component is removed from the engine, then just the short block is replaced - then al those countless parts need to be bolted back on - correctly.
Agreed. A short block is a bull**** repair IMO. The dealership floor is not the place to build long lasting engines. I would discount the value of a dealer rebuild by at least $5k in a used market. Toyota should be shipping factory fresh complete long block engines to swap in one day.
 
Potential new car buyer’s concern:

“Oh that’s the car that has the engine in it that blows up”

It’s going to take a lot of damage control from Toyota to try to erase this perception
Outside of enthusiasts and general car nerds I doubt many of your average consumers know about it right now.
 
Potential new car buyer’s concern:

“Oh that’s the car that has the engine in it that blows up”

It’s going to take a lot of damage control from Toyota to try to erase this perception

Forget about Lexus with stuck accelerator pedals that led to a safety recall?


Sh*t happens...I'd rather deal w/ a mfg that is willing to do something about it (fairly promptly) versus another who fails to even acknowledge the issues (cough...Stellantis)
 
Even if it was a random mfg process, you can block the earliest and latest window of known failures then use statistics to identify w/ some confidence on what other engines may also be impacted.

Yes, statistically you will get a population of random defects that are naturally occurring, but TQM/SPC uses some fairly advanced distributions to help address your valid concerns above.
Certainly makes sense if Toyota can work out combinations of factors that have a statistically significant increase in rate of failure compared to a baseline/target value, then pull those vehicles into the recall pool.

I've had most of my vehicles recalled in the past and have spent a lot of my own time fixing design flaws on my GX (cracked exhaust manifolds, cracked dash - next will be an 8.2" swap). What's unique about this is just how catastrophic the failure is and how expensive/intrusive the repair is. This can also be contrasted to something like a Subaru EJ25 head gasket failure - but for one of those failures, there is plenty of forewarning (leaking coolant/oil), and the repair can be done within a few days or done as a DIY (Subaru also never admitted there was a problem). Same goes for the Tacoma frame recall - plenty of forewarning for an owner who occasionally looked underneath the truck - but almost as intrusive as this repair.
 
It doesn't. They're surely going to come up with some sort of test or something to diagnose without tearing down the engine.

I am super curious if Toyota is in fact going to be able to develop a relatively simple per-vehicle test and / or diagnosis procedure that will accurately determine that a vehicle is, or will be, affected. Toyota obviously benefits if this is achievable, as do the owners of the vehicles. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Whatever test they come up with, given the safety recall, I don't think many false negatives will be tolerated by the NHTSA. So if for whatever reason they cannot reliably narrow the affected pool of vehicles and they must offer the remedy to all within the listed production periods, it's difficult to not notice the gigantic waste of time, money, and effort that will occur repairing / replacing so many more than likely perfectly fine engines.
 
Seeing some headlines that dealers are not taking the affected vehicles as trade in now. Hopefully Toyota figures out a solution PDQ. If I were a used car dealership - I wouldn't touch one. For a new dealership I'd guess they're still taking them, but at a discount. Could be an okay time to take a risk and get one at a big discount and hope Toyota has a proper fix in the works. Especially if you find a deep discount from someone panic selling.

It does seem a bit problematic that Toyota issues the recall notice and has been this long without a TSB for the fix. Usually they have a fix ready to go by the time they issue the warning/recall.
 
Yeah - end of July seems to be the time when Toyota will maybe issue instructions. — At least that’s when the recall notices go out.
 
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Interesting video for sure and a good perspective. Also glad to see that he shares the same opinion on the short block replacement (terrible idea for several reasons, not of least is compensation for the tech) relative to a long block. I would be very interested to know what the specific short block and bearing changes were. Overall, I'm also not convinced this is a 100% manufacturing problem, but again I also don't own and am not planning on buying one of these any time soon :).
 
Not sure if this has been posted, but the time line of the investigation by Toyota is interesting to say the least....

I don't believe it's been posted in this thread but @ikarus posted it in another a couple weeks ago and it is very interesting.


If anyone wants to nerd out on this (I found it interesting,) you can read the official NHTSA report here:


Overall link to additional documents:

I'm not an expert but interesting points that stand out to me:

1. This is specifically labeled a "Safety Recall." It seems like the NHTSA only deals in defects that could injure or damage people/cars and impact highway safety. Other "recalls" specific to Tundras like broken seat trim, poor alignment/tire wear or wind noise aren't on there. Probably just TSBs?

So when you look at it that way, check out section 2. (2) - "If engine failure occurs on a Hybrid vehicle, the vehicle continues to have some motive power for limited distances and the driver receives a continuous audible warning, warning lamps, and visual warning messages."

In terms of safety they're not exactly claiming that hybrids are good to go, they're saying that if your engine dies at 70 you have a better chance of coasting to the side of the road vs a non-hybrid. Reading between the lines, they're saying hybrids can also fail.

2. In section 6 you can read a chronology of events. Here's a summary but there's a decent amount of info there:

- March 22 - Dec 22: Three engines failed. Toyota looked into it. Couldn't figure out what happened. They hypothesized that it was machining debris so they implemented cleanliness changes.

- Jan 23 - Aug 23: Toyota continued to watch the market and analyze engines to see how their cleanliness changes were doing.

- Sep 23 - Jan 24: Toyota saw an increase in engine failures (We can assume that a large portion of the 824 verified failures happened here between 2023-2024.) They also started investigations into the design of the engine (including the durability of the crank bearing itself) and the installation process in the factory.

- Feb 24 - May 24: Investigations showed that even some good engines showed bearing degradation but no failure. They completed their investigation and "The results showed that the damage that was seen on the bearings was from debris created during the engine machining process, and that there were sufficient debris sizes and amounts present to cause a bearing to fail."

Then they announced the official recall last month.

3. In this document, Toyota states that "All known owners of the subject vehicles will be informed that remedy is under investigation and that they will be contacted when further information is available" and in the official notice to dealers, they say "Toyota is currently developing the remedy for this issue."


The timeline makes sense to me, with Hybrids of all years and 24s, both Tundras and Seqouias, that have failed. They implemented changes in Dec 2022, but haven't made any changes since then - at least none that I could see in this report. They made those first changes and then just kept analyzing and studying the problem. And as noted, they don't have the remedy yet. So it may be a little while before they have the bugs worked out of their machining debris issue.
 
I don't believe it's been posted in this thread but @ikarus posted it in another a couple weeks ago and it is very interesting.


Ahhh. Got it. I'll delete if it's been posted already. :cheers:
 
I'm sure The Nut has better insight than Toyota engineers who can examine blocks during the manufacturing process as well as do finite examination of the failed parts. Sheesh.

@toyotausa: this is what happens when you don't address the problem quickly and with assurance. Regardless of the end state (which I do believe will eventually be positive) you've allowed speculation and rumor to run their course. Leadership 101: the story is always going to be told. Your choice is to tell it completely and provide assurance or to allow others to invent. The ball was in your court and you responded with a half-measure. We buy Toyota's not because of performance, or tech, or price but for quality. And you've completely dropped the ball with your response. Take out a full-page add tomorrow simply saying: 'We got you. We'll make it right. - Love, your Toyota'. And you can stop all of these speculators feeding off your tone deaf message.
 

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