V35A-FTS bearing issue? (2 Viewers)

[rexington14]

I'm sure The Nut has better insight than Toyota engineers who can examine blocks during the manufacturing process as well as do finite examination of the failed parts. Sheesh.

@toyotausa: this is what happens when you don't address the problem quickly and with assurance. Regardless of the end state (which I do believe will eventually be positive) you've allowed speculation and rumor to run their course. Leadership 101: the story is always going to be told. Your choice is to tell it completely and provide assurance or to allow others to invent. The ball was in your court and you responded with a half-measure. We buy Toyota's not because of performance, or tech, or price but for quality. And you've completely dropped the ball with your response. Take out a full-page add tomorrow simply saying: 'We got you. We'll make it right. - Love, your Toyota'. And you can stop all of these speculators feeding off your tone deaf message.

I don't know man. Check out the defect report timeline. They've been aware and investigating the issue since March 2022.

If Toyota came out last year with a simple "we're looking into this" statement would that really have satisfied folks?

It's been a crappy situation for the affected owners, but an amazing situation ($$$) for the youtubers and other social media players involved in blowing this way out of proportion

 

[OGBeno]

Agreed.

Statistically speaking, the number of failure vs. the number of operating vehicles out there is not even worth a cigarette in the ashtray engineer’s hat.

If this was any other manufacturer, this would have been swept away as acceptable losses and built into P&L statement and written off.

 

[SanJuanJ]

Agreed.

Statistically speaking, the number of failure vs. the number of operating vehicles out there is not even worth a cigarette in the ashtray engineer’s hat.

If this was any other manufacturer, this would have been swept away as acceptable losses and built into P&L statement and written off.

If you say so. But if roughly 1,000 of roughly 100,000 vehicles two years old or less have had catastrophic engine failure, everyone who has one is dealing with nervousness and a diminished aftermarket value.

 

[OGBeno]

If you say so. But if roughly 1,000 of roughly 100,000 vehicles two years old or less have had catastrophic engine failure, everyone who has one is dealing with nervousness and a diminished aftermarket value.

I’m not saying it doesn’t suck at the human/emotional level. Sure does. I hope Toyota takes care of these people. In the end, this is the only level that matters for someone shelling out close to $100k for a toaster on wheels.

What I’m saying, viewed from a total statistical data set of all V35A-FTS engines manufactured globally, it’s as close to zero as any manufacturer could ever get to in terms of a failure rate of a complex product.

Beyond the Toyota numbers presented in the recall documentation, everything else is pure speculation and vaporware.

The important questions still not answered:

1. What are the actual failure rates attributed to the presented reasons for failure?

2. What’s the actual data set for V35A-FTS engines, globally?

3. What’s the failure rate within warranty period (IE: What Toyota has already set aside money for to cover: aka: risk amortization)

4. What was the historical failure rate of the engine within its design phase? What was the acceptable engine failure rate internal to Toyota? What is the historical engine failure rate of similar engines with similar design/use cases?

5. What is the failure rate due to ignorant owners? (Read: insufficient maintenance/improper maintenance/improper uses).

6. What is the failure rate at the approved levels of engine maintenance and usage cases?

We do not know the answers to any of these questions; ergo, besides the recall documentation, everything else available in the public sphere is purely anecdotal, at best. Most of it is self-aggrandizing clickbait for people scrolling at night when they are sick of their wives/kids/life.

Car Care dude does a good job of dumbing down complex technical topics to help people, gain followers, bring work into his shop, and to incentivize his Toyota certifications since he’s not in the dealer world now. Smart guy. His discussion of the part number supersessions was rudimentary, at best.

 

[MountaineerLC]

I’m not saying it doesn’t suck at the human/emotional level. Sure does. I hope Toyota takes care of these people. In the end, this is the only level that matters for someone shelling out close to $100k for a toaster on wheels.

What I’m saying, viewed from a total statistical data set of all V35A-FTS engines manufactured globally, it’s as close to zero as any manufacturer could ever get to in terms of a failure rate of a complex product.

Beyond the Toyota numbers presented in the recall documentation, everything else is pure speculation and vaporware.

The important questions still not answered:

1. What are the actual failure rates attributed to the presented reasons for failure?

2. What’s the actual data set for V35A-FTS engines, globally?

3. What’s the failure rate within warranty period (IE: What Toyota has already set aside money for to cover: aka: risk amortization)

4. What was the historical failure rate of the engine within its design phase? What was the acceptable engine failure rate internal to Toyota? What is the historical engine failure rate of similar engines with similar design/use cases?

5. What is the failure rate due to ignorant owners? (Read: insufficient maintenance/improper maintenance/improper uses).

6. What is the failure rate at the approved levels of engine maintenance and usage cases?

We do not know the answers to any of these questions; ergo, besides the recall documentation, everything else available in the public sphere is purely anecdotal, at best. Most of it is self-aggrandizing clickbait for people scrolling at night when they are sick of their wives/kids/life.

Car Care dude does a good job of dumbing down complex technical topics to help people, gain followers, bring work into his shop, and to incentivize his Toyota certifications since he’s not in the dealer world now. Smart guy. His discussion of the part number supersessions was rudimentary, at best.

All very good points. I’d love to have the answer to #4 and know how many of the 4.7’s and 5.7’s died young through no fault of the owner. My guess if far fewer, but who know other than Mr. T.

Social media can be great, but very often “it’s the devil”. Regardless of the topic, an issue or snippet of information gets regurgitated around and around and eventually whipped into something it’s not, nor ever was to begin with. The situation gets even worse when you add in the content creators that are sensationalizing the issue for clicks and followers.

 

[OSS]

Well…. Clickbait or not, there hasn’t been a Toyota engine recall due to possible catastrophic engine failure that I can ever recall in my lifetime — except for this V35A.
So I don’t think this engine falls into the norm.

 

[rexington14]

Well…. Clickbait or not, there hasn’t been a Toyota engine recall due to possible catastrophic engine failure that I can ever recall in my lifetime — except for this V35A.
So I don’t think this engine falls into the norm.

Watch (rewatch?) the care care nut video. He mentions a previous recall on the A25A where pistons were manufactured incorrectly (too large), which of course could lead to catastrophic failure. The remedy from Toyota was a full engine replacement for the affected vehicles.

We're likely to see the same remedy on the V35A, although presumably on a much larger pool of affected vehicles.

 

[OGBeno]

Well…. Clickbait or not, there hasn’t been a Toyota engine recall due to possible catastrophic engine failure that I can ever recall in my lifetime — except for this V35A.
So I don’t think this engine falls into the norm.

This is incorrect.

 

[OregonLC]

I don't know man. Check out the defect report timeline. They've been aware and investigating the issue since March 2022.

If Toyota came out last year with a simple "we're looking into this" statement would that really have satisfied folks?

It's been a crappy situation for the affected owners, but an amazing situation ($$$) for the youtubers and other social media players involved in blowing this way out of proportion

Hence my saying their response has been extremely poor. Needed was absolute assurance. What we got was silence until the recall notice, which in some ways opened more questions than it answered.

Perhaps from the perspective of Toyota they view it as all being covered under warranty so no further action is required. That the warranty is covering the cost and that the owners perceive a significant degradation of the value proposition are two different things. The slow walk down the path of resolution is eroding much value in the their high-profit truck segment. While a bold move like 100k power-train warranty extension may cost money, I gotta believe it's less than the damage being done to the brand.

 

[rexington14]

Hence my saying their response has been extremely poor. Needed was absolute assurance. What we got was silence until the recall notice, which in some ways opened more questions than it answered.

Perhaps from the perspective of Toyota they view it as all being covered under warranty so no further action is required. That the warranty is covering the cost and that the owners perceive a significant degradation of the value proposition are two different things. The slow walk down the path of resolution is eroding much value in the their high-profit truck segment. While a bold move like 100k power-train warranty extension may cost money, I gotta believe it's less than the damage being done to the brand.

Their investigation was ongoing. Any statement would again, most likely have been completely generic. Meanwhile, every single failure occurrence has been completely covered under warranty.

IMO the perception of "damage being done to the brand" / "toyotas aren't reliable" / "sell your tundra now before it costs you $35k to fix" is mostly a social media driven hysteria. 2024 Tundra sales were up 41.3 percent in March and up 31.0 percent in the first quarter ... compared to 2023. April and May are also way up compared to prior year. So whatever "value" is being eroded certainly doesn't appear financial and/or demand related.

 

[Jetboy]

1 in 100 failure rate is not normal. It's at least an order of magnitude higher than typical failure rates, Appears at this point to be 2 or 3 orders of magnitude higher failure rate than typical historical Toyota truck engines. Remember we're talking 1 in 100 failures within the first 2 years, not 1 in 100 after a decade.

 

[OGBeno]

1 in 100 failure rate is not normal. It's at least an order of magnitude higher than typical failure rates, Appears at this point to be 2 or 3 orders of magnitude higher failure rate than typical historical Toyota truck engines. Remember we're talking 1 in 100 failures within the first 2 years, not 1 in 100 after a decade.

How do you know this? Where is your data to prove this?

 

[SanJuanJ]

How do you know this? Where is your data to prove this?

If i recall the recall notice referenced roughly 1,000 failures and the recall covers ~100,000 vehicles.

 

[OGBeno]

If i recall the recall notice referenced roughly 1,000 failures and the recall covers ~100,000 vehicles.

That's correct. For only 1 market out of 5 global markets where this engine is used in vehicles. I don't know if there are recalls for this engine in other markets. That would be worthwhile knowing as well. Engines built at TMMAL are also shipped overseas.

Would be interesting again to know the complete data set of V35A engines Toyota reviewed.

 

[OSS]

Ok-
In the last 20 years, there have been 277 NHTSA safety recalls on all the Toyota models for various reasons. Of those 277, I found three engine recalls of which the current V35A is one of them.

Here’s a link of the 277 Toyota recalls I found (Prius has a lot of them). There’s a lot of label recalls too which mean nothing.
I think everyone should take a look at this to put the current state of affairs in perspective.

https://www.cars.com/research/toyota/recalls/

 

[Jetboy]

How do you know this? Where is your data to prove this?

850 current failures out of 102,000 is ~ 1 in 128,. I rounded to be 1 in 100.

If this was a common failure rate - Toyota would not exist. Toyota sells about 2.2M vehicles per year in the USA. If they were needing an engine replacement in 1 in 128 by the second year of ownership, Toyota dealership lots would be stacked with pallets of engines and back lots would be overflowing with vehicles waiting for engine swaps. I don't think the 1500 dealerships in the USA would have the capacity to even maintain that run rate on engine swaps.

 

[OGBeno]

850 current failures out of 102,000 is ~ 1 in 128,. I rounded to be 1 in 100.

If this was a common failure rate - Toyota would not exist. Toyota sells about 2.2M vehicles per year in the USA. If they were needing an engine replacement in 1 in 128 by the second year of ownership, Toyota dealership lots would be stacked with pallets of engines and back lots would be overflowing with vehicles waiting for engine swaps. I don't think the 1500 dealerships in the USA would have the capacity to even maintain that run rate on engine swaps.

Don't look at just the US data set. Look at the engine globally. It is a global engine. Not just a US engine and the engine manufactured at Tahara and TMMAL go to global markets, not just the US.

 

[TheLCProject]

That would be nice, but other governments might not be requiring recalls (and data) yet or ever. So the public won't ever get to see that data set. We are stuck with only what NHTSA requires Toyota to report or what Toyota voluntarily reports.

Further, supposedly Toyota makes these engines in precisely the same way with precisely the same parts, in every plant they are produced, whether it is in TX, Japan, or elsewhere. Wouldn't the US failure rate represent a sample of the entire engine production? And if it's a design issue and not a production issue, then plant of manufacture wouldn't matter.

 

[Acrad]

These had to have been posted somewhere around Mud but here are the links to the Toyota documents listed at NHTSA

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2024/RCLRPT-24V381-6004.PDF

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2024/RCMN-24V381-1577.pdf

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2024/RCAK-24V381-9859.pdf

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2024/RMISC-24V381-8150.pdf

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2024/RCMN-24V381-3977.pdf

 

[Phillyd2]

Still too early to make a call on lasting brand damage. A lot depends on the fix. But there's no use trying to lipstick this pig, at a minimum it's especially embarrassing because one of the main selling points for their trucks is reliability.

Whatever the short coming or criticism it's usually answered with 'yeah, but it's a Toyota and will last forever'.