Transfer clunk with front drive shaft play

[Don Jose]

Hi all. I would be grateful if you could share your views on the following issues I'm having with my 91' 3FE.

Since I got the car about a year ago, and especially the last 3 months, it has developed a serious clunk. At first it was OK, and would almost be normal, but lately it is getting very strong. This is not the normal clunk of the non-vc transfer. It happens when shifting from R to D and vice versa, and also when pressing and depressing the gas when driving. It's the strongest in H with the CDL off,with the CDL on it's about four times less. In L there isn't any clunk at all.

Ruled out u joint. By sound and vibrations the clunk can definitely be narrowed down to the transfer case. More noticeable is the very large rotational play of the front drive shaft. In N the rear drive shaft rotates freely less than 1/2", while the front goes maybe about 2". It definitely looks as though this amount of play is not healthy at all and produces the clunks. If this is the case, could you help me narrow down the probable parts I would have to replace?

My TLC has a 2" TJM lift.

Thanks to everyone in advance!

 

[Don Jose]

By the way, greasing the slip yokes/u joints with MOLY didn't alleviate the problem at all. Any ideas - please?

 

[elhombre]

When you describe a "clunk", it sure makes me think that the slip joint is no good. My rear one went out and when I finally replaced it, the clunk was gone AND a vibration disappeared.

If you are sure it is not in the drive shaft, I would suggest taking the front drive shaft out and checking the front output flange on the front of the transfer case. Mine is a different year than yours, but it had no play up or down, only a little play forwards and backwards. I would think that if your front output shaft bearing is going bad, you would see shiney metal flakes in the gear oil also. I would drain the transfer oil after it has been driven and warmed up.

 

[yoopercharged]

Try one driveshaft at a time. (ie pull front driveshaft and test drive, re-install, pull rear driveshaft and test drive)

 

[ecameron87]

I have had the same problem for years only it is not as extreme sounding as yours, just annoying. I pulled the front driveshaft and checked for play at the front pinion and at the transfer case yoke. The pinion and driveshaft had no play in it, but the transfer case did. Mine only moved about half an inch at the front yoke while the rear yoke of the transfer case was tight.

It sounds like you are on the right path as to where the problem lies. Unfortunatly I do not know the fix for it. Maybe it is a worn out vicious coupler? If you find out how to fix it, please post it up!

 

[Don Jose]

Thanks all for your input. I think it's quite safe to rule out the drive shaft. Has to be in the front side of the transfer. Will drain the oil after the next drive, but unfortunately cannot take anything apart - lack of experience combined with repairs out in the snow is not a good combination

So far your recommendations and my reading up has lead me to speculate on the following probable causes:

front output flange
pinion gears
spider (side) gears

Currently I'm trying to contact a capable acquaintance of mine, with whom we could take apart the thing and see what's damaged. I have a very nice diagram of the transfer from the original manual - will try to post it later. Thanks again for your suggestions!

 

[Don Jose]

Here it is:

 

[jonheld]

In N the rear drive shaft rotates freely less than 1/2", while the front goes maybe about 2".

How did you check this? Were all wheels on the ground? If so then the play would be in the front end. With the driveshafts removed, the output flanges of the transfer case have no rotational limit. They can spin round and round. What "limits" the rotation would be the amount of slack at each driven axle. If the front can move freely for 2" or rotation, then it's possible the drive plate splines are worn down.

FWIW, every 80 series I have been under has greater rotational play in the front than the rear, simply because of the number of drive interfaces.

 

[Don Jose]

How did you check this? Were all wheels on the ground? If so then the play would be in the front end.

Yeah, all the wheels were on the ground.

With the driveshafts removed, the output flanges of the transfer case have no rotational limit. They can spin round and round.What "limits" the rotation would be the amount of slack at each driven axle.

Thanks, this is valuable info - since the clunk is definitely within the transfer, then this would mean a problem in both the front axle and transfer - am I correct?

I have some clicking in the birffs when turning sharply - I suppose this could not account for such an amount of play of the drive shaft?

it's possible the drive plate splines are worn down.

Sorry - my technical english is not up to par and additionally I'm confused by the abundance of terms used for the same or different parts... could you kindly clarify which drive plate?

Sorry if I'm stupid

 

[Don Jose]

Went to a well recommended mechanic today - the news is not good - u joints and slip yoke on the front drive shaft are in perfect shape.

As I suspected, the problem is in the transfer, and also in the front diff - apparently if there's play in the front drive shaft, then there's something wrong with both the transfer and diff.

The tearing down and rebuild will cost me about 600$ just for workmanship. Plus I have to order all the parts, which will not be less than 600$, provided we only need to change a couple of gears and bearings in both the transfer and diff - ring and pinion, side/spider gears for example. And we're looking at about a week of work, plus at least a week for shipping....

I'm not at all happy with this. Will keep you posted, maybe I'll be able to get a few pics - once I decide to go ahead with this, maybe next week.

 

[Don Jose]

Back from the mechanic with very good news. After we took off the drive shafts, it became apparent that there practically isn't any play in the transfer, nor the front or rear diffs.

The guys from the workshop suggested that it may be the birfs - and they were perfectly right. The birfs had a lot of play, the splines on the birfs and on the drive plate were in terrible condition. This is excellent news for me, and for my wallet.

So, looking up on the various alternatives for purchasing birfs, I stumbled upon chinese made birfs - only 50$ each. I am assured by an aussie acquaintance, that these are very very high quality and the most popular birfs in Australia. According to him OEM birfs last about 15 years, these last about 8.

So now I'm waiting for the parts to arrive - will write up next week when we put everything together. Cross your fingers - this should take care of my clunking problem

 

[Don Jose]

Hi all,
everything turned out just fine - no more clunking when acc/decc, neither any shocks when shifting. There's still a bit of "accumulated slop", but it is completely normal, at least according to my senses

Thanks all for the feedback!

And now, moving on to the rough idle issues

 

[DRBoffroad]

Birfs

Don Jose,
I'm having the same issues here on my end. I'm running a 92 and experience the clunking as well. I took the rig to a transmission shop thinking it was that or the t-case. They went through the whole drivetrain and ended up telling me it was in the front axle. When I jack up the front of my truck I can literally rotate the tire 6" in either direction. I bought a knuckle rebuild kit after being told this will eliminate the problem. Since my rig is as old as yours I'm also in need of new Birfs. could you post the info on where you purchased them?

 

[Don Jose]

Hi DRBoffroad

They went through the whole drivetrain and ended up telling me it was in the front axle.

It's pretty easy to see where the play is, once you take of the driveshafts.

When I jack up the front of my truck I can literally rotate the tire 6" in either direction.

I read about a similar test by putting the car in Park - it's a sure way for assessing the condition of the splines on the birfs and drive flange (plate):

See post number 5 in this thread:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/272934-transfer-case-repair-swap-help.html

I bought a knuckle rebuild kit after being told this will eliminate the problem.

As far as I know the most complete knuckle rebuild kit contains all the gaskets, wheel and knuckle bearings. It seems quite implausible to get so much play from worn bearings only... don't know why someone would recommend this before checking the birfs/drive flange...

I'm not sure if forum rules allow posting of links to seller items, but since you asked I will do so. I found the cheap birfs locally, here in Europe, for about 60$ each. The following seller (in Australia) has japanese birfs 160$ each, as well as taiwanese birfs for 50$ each - the same as the ones I got here - I'm assured that everyone in Australia rides these, and that they last about 8 years, as apposed to the japanese one's who last about 15 years. Both are much cheaper that any alternatives I found in the States. Here are the links:

Japanese CV Joint Toyota Landcruiser 80 Series 90-4/94 - eBay (item 400187014781 end time Feb-09-11 00:55:42 PST)

New CV Joint Toyota Landcruiser 4x4 80 Series 1990-4/94 - eBay (item 130475878701 end time Feb-14-11 16:07:50 PST)

I got my knuckle rebuild kit and new drive flanges from them, service was good. Ask for Simon.

You will probably be better off getting new drive flanges too, as I did.

Also, putting in different oil in the front/rear diffs will reduce slop - the FSM says 80w90, but 75w140 works much much better on a 20 year old rig - I did this and the car runs like much more smoothly, although the thicker oil seems to have reduced my mpg a bit...

Hope that helps,

All the best!

 

[Elavarasan]

Hi Don Jose,


I am new to this forum. I drive a LC 100 Gulf spec with 1FZ-FE engine and A442F transmission, 200K kilometers done.

I have very similar issues as you described.

In addition to that following issues are observed

1. The car jumps with thud noise when changing gear from R to P and or P to D

2. During I feel as if the whole drive train oscillating back and forth especially while driving over a hump, if I put my hand on the gear shifter.

3. I have 1 inch backlash in the front drive shaft.


I lubed the drive shafts using moly fortified grease as suggested in this forum.

The engine and transmission mounts are brand new


Can you please clarify what birfield is and also mention the part number.


Thanks a lot.

 

[Elavarasan]

Excuse me for the typo in my previous post in point no. 2

2. While driving I feel as if the whole drive train oscillating back and forth especially while driving over a hump, if I put my hand on the gear shifter.

 

[Alleycats]

I have a 1991, and I'd check a couple of things;

1: front drive flange's
2: front companion flange at diff

These have splines that wear out causing excessive backlash.

Having said that some clunk is normal.