Yup - MPG is about the same for me. Speed (and wind!) and elevation and grade - quite the trifecta!
Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser (4 Viewers)
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As you know, it's very much a different mindset on the AS forums. They don't like modifications and will argue in circles around payload and capacities. In contrast to this board where there's not as much concern to exceeding stated capacities (which I'm guilty of). Though I'd say the 200-series is unique in some respects to truly having additional margins because of its intended mission and HD design.
I like that you're working with real world scaled weights vice unrealistic empty weights that trailer manufactures like to publish. It's a huge difference. My 27FB trailer is likewise highly modified with 6V batts, generator on tongue, solar. Easily in the 1100-1200 tongue weight, which is not unheard of even in a stock full timer 27FB. Overall trailer scales in at just under 8k.
If you've ever peaked under the 200-series skin, I would have no qualms about the ability of the rear structure and receiver to handle high capacities. It's not bolted on but integral to the frame. The receiver is fully boxed in all the way too its lip which is something I've never seen elsewhere.
I would be cautious as some upgrades may create benefits while inviting some compromises. Lift in particular is not really what you want. Added spring rate can be helpful, either with heavier rate springs or airbags, though finding non or small lift higher rate springs may be a challenge. Rear damping upgrades may actually be what you want to focus on, as the LCs rear suspension is notably underdamped when laden.
If upgrades are what you're looking for, I'd probably go down the path of airbags and upgraded shocks. Pref shocks front and rear as it works as a system. Unless you have additional priorities like off-road performance which even stock already has lots of capability.
What model is that Outdoors RV?
How do you like the Dobinson? Better/ worse than oe?
azstreamer
GOLD Star
Got to dealer in Mesa, AZ at 1300 and drove home at 1800 in a 2021 Silver with brown interior LC built in Dec 2020. They have a few more in pipe line. Toyota made on 1 March the allocation for all of the remaining production of 200 series.
21DBS
It’s more firm then OE but not by a ton. I do believe the E rated tires are the biggest culprit to a firm ride. Otherwise it tows much better and definitely feels stronger. And I like the lift height.
azstreamer
GOLD Star
Working on getting the Aussie Long Range 12.5 gallon auxiliary gas tank that lets the spare back into it's location after the install. Looking at a Tuson DL200NE brake controller like I have on my Ram 2500HD. That is upgradeable to support their ABS disc brake system on a trailer. It plugs into the OBD port for real time information on what is happening on the vehicle. The only other thoughts are the rear end sag which might need some help. I put all four wheels air bag level ride suspension on the RAM so there is no sag.
The LC is to be our "Up Market" (as my British wife says) tow vehicle with the ability to really get off the beaten path and see things. We may even raise the 23D two or three inches to get the black water pipes higher off the ground in the rear.
FYI, unless they gave changed the owners manual from the 2016 it does in fact state a tongue weight max of 850 lbs. Not that abided by that as my previous trailer had a tongue weight of about 950. (I used a ProPride). Also, I find most if TV manufacturers don't even consider the "10-15%" rule of thumb for tongue weight. I have seen a number of European SUVs who claim a tow rating of 7700 lbs but state nothing about tongue weight. An example of that was the LR4 I had which had a 7700# tow rating and yet had a stated tongue weight maximum of 556#! A lot of tow ratings had more to do with marketing and engine power unless they manufacturers chose to use the SAE tested ratings. Toyota does use the SAE test ratings and once they began to do so they dropped their tow rating down to 8100 from somewhat higher.
Not saying you can't or shouldn't go higher than 850#. I did.
FWIW, I put the progressive springs @linuxgod referred to earlier and have loved them. Softer when not towing, stiffer when I am. With no adjustments required.
azstreamer
GOLD Star
The conjecture its now over. Crossed the truck scales at Love's on southwest edge pf Phoenix this morning (15MAR2021). The numbers reflect me sitting in the driver's seat.
Front. 3,200 (3,595 pounds axle rating)
Rear: 2,980 (4,300 pounds axle rating)
Total: 6,189 (7,385 pounds published GVW or 7,895 pounds total of axle ratings which really controls my decision)
The OEM Dunflops tires supplied have a load rating of 2,750 pounds at 51 psi so there is plenty of extra tire load capacity to work with using the stock sized tires.
We have net payload capacirty of 395 pounds at the front and and 1,420 pounds at the rear based upon axle ratings. The net total payload is 7,385 (factory GVW) - 6,108 = 1,205. Adding in the 510 pounds for max axle load shows a payload of 1715 pounds. The trailer scales 6,069 pounds with a tongue weight of about 920 pounds.
There is no issue of our 23D numbers fitting within the Toyota range for a trailer. There is ample capacity for the wife, a small Weber BBQ, air pump equipment bag and chairs plus usual wife stuff in the car.
The serious issue is rear end sag and how much the stock springs and the Hensley Arrow can do to over come the sag.
On a unrelated note, the lie-o-meter in the dash showed my LC getting 20 mpg on the flats at 65mph.
Front. 3,200 (3,595 pounds axle rating)
Rear: 2,980 (4,300 pounds axle rating)
Total: 6,189 (7,385 pounds published GVW or 7,895 pounds total of axle ratings which really controls my decision)
The OEM Dunflops tires supplied have a load rating of 2,750 pounds at 51 psi so there is plenty of extra tire load capacity to work with using the stock sized tires.
We have net payload capacirty of 395 pounds at the front and and 1,420 pounds at the rear based upon axle ratings. The net total payload is 7,385 (factory GVW) - 6,108 = 1,205. Adding in the 510 pounds for max axle load shows a payload of 1715 pounds. The trailer scales 6,069 pounds with a tongue weight of about 920 pounds.
There is no issue of our 23D numbers fitting within the Toyota range for a trailer. There is ample capacity for the wife, a small Weber BBQ, air pump equipment bag and chairs plus usual wife stuff in the car.
The serious issue is rear end sag and how much the stock springs and the Hensley Arrow can do to over come the sag.
On a unrelated note, the lie-o-meter in the dash showed my LC getting 20 mpg on the flats at 65mph.
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This post has been helpful for me many times over! I just pulled the trigger on the same airbag setup (link still works!) the bags will be paired with the Bilstein kit and OME UCAs... still debating the rear springs; either Icon dual rate or the OME dual rates... thx againI posted this on my personal blog at Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser but wanted to share it here directly so it would be indexed.
I've read a number of different thoughts and opinions about towing with the 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser. One popular opinion which seems to come mostly from owners of full size diesel pickups, is that due to the relatively short 112" wheelbase, the Land Cruiser is a poor towing vehicle. After a few trips and tweaks to my setup, I can confidently say that with the proper setup, the Land Cruiser is actually a great towing vehicle.
Keep in mind everyone's trailer and towing setup will be a bit different, so rather than take my setup as the bible I recommend you try out your setup and make small adjustments until you're happy with it.
The Vehicles
My basic setup is a US-spec 2013 Toyota Land Cruiser with the 3UR-FE 5.7L V-8 engine, rated to tow 8,500 lbs with an 850 lb maximum tongue weight, and a 2005 Forest River Surveyor 235RS trailer which weighs about 5,000 lbs and has a roughly 600 lb tongue weight when loaded with all of our gear (except fresh water). Prior to the Land Cruiser we towed with a 2008 Acura MDX with 5,000 lb rated tow capacity, which definitely pushed the limits of that vehicle. Aside from the trailer, when camping we have 2 adults, 3 kids, a 75lb dog, a cooler full of food and ice, as well as clothing and other miscellaneous items in the vehicle (easily 650-700lbs).
Weight Distribution
One of the keys to the proper towing setup is a good weight distributing hitch with anti-sway setup. When I purchased the trailer I brought it home using a basic hitch and standard 2 5/16" hitch ball. When I got home I immediately ordered a Pro Series Weight Distribution Hitch with Sway Control for about $250 from eTrailer.com. (Note: Because I never expected my tongue weight to exceed 500 lbs I purchased the basic PS49901 model, with a 550lb limit. While I've considered upgrading the bars to allow me to shift more weight and better level the vehicle, the heavier bars tend to make the ride stiff and bouncy). When engaged, the weight distribution (WD) hitch and trunnion bars transfer a portion of the tongue weight off the rear axle onto the front axle of the vehicle. I once weighed the Acura at a truck stop with and without WD and the setup did shift about 80-100 lbs to the front axle depending on how many links on the chain were pulled up.
When I moved the Pro Series WD setup to the Land Cruiser, I discovered that the trailer was not level (nose-up by several inches). While most trailer hitches are level at 21-24", the Surveyor frame sits about 6" lower to the ground. Thus even at the lowest setting, the hitch ball was at least 4" too high. When combined with less tongue weight (one empty 30# propane cylinder and no bicycles stored in front), the trailer felt squirrel-y on the highway whenever there was a gust of wind. To get the trailer level when towing, I ended up purchasing a taller weight distribution hitch bar (shank) from Amazon for $75, which allowed me to drop the height of the hitch ball several inches lower. For my setup, I purchased a Curt 17123 (which is actually 12.25" tall) with the WD hitch mounted at the lowest setting makes the trailer almost perfectly level after my last modification.
Helper Air Bags
While the WD hitch does a solid job, I carry varying loads at times depending on whether we bring all 5 bicycles, how much propane is in the tanks, etc. I considered using a heavier duty WD setup, but the stiffer bars have a lower limit of 550 lbs which could present handling issues when running a lower tongue weight. In addition, it's recommended that 8 to 15% of your trailer weight be located on the tongue, and with a 5,000 lb trailer I was concerned about shifting too much weight off the tongue and onto the front axle as trailer sway, especially as caused by tractor trailers at highway speed, can be a serious problem. Rather than change to stiffer WD bars, I realized I needed to do something to better support or strengthen the rear suspension. That left me with two options:
I ended up opting for the helper air bags and purchased a Firestone 4164 air bag kit and a standard duty Air Lift 25804 air compressor from Amazon for under $250 and documented the installation here. I'll summarize that article with the following quote:
- Upgrade the rear springs from standard to heavy duty (340lbf/in) or more. While this would limit compression (and thus the rear end sag) when towing, the stiffer springs would almost certainly make the rear end quite bouncy when unloaded. As the majority of our non-towing driving is on city streets loaded with potholes, I was afraid any upgrade would completely ruin the ride of the vehicle.
- Install a set of helper air bags inside the springs and inflate them when towing. This has the benefit of allowing adjusting the stiffness depending on the situation by adding or removing air from the bags.
With 35psi in the bags, the Land Cruiser towed like a friggin’ champ. The ride was very smooth, and with the anti-sway bar installed I had no trouble running 70+mph on the highway. All in all I’m very pleased with the setup.
Sway Control
The Pro Series Weight Distribution Hitch I ordered comes with a friction anti-sway device (available separately for $40). It basically sandwiches a piece of metal between two other pieces which you compress by tightening a bolt on the device. If you're towing anything more than a pop-up at 45mph or higher, you really want one of these. The device takes less than 60 seconds to install or remove, but does a great job of limiting swaying in crosswinds or when passing tractor trailers on the highway.
Braking
The Land Cruiser comes with a trailer brake controller port, but if you're towing a trailer with a GVWR > 3,000lbs, you'll need to order and install a controller and wiring adapter. I purchased a Tekonsha Primus IQ a few years back for the Acura, so I just needed to order the Tekonsha Toyota Wiring Harness. Installation took about 30 minutes by following the Trailer Brake Controller Connector discussion over at iH8mud. I mounted mine at the bottom of the dash on the left side - out of the way, but requires me to lean forward to adjust it. My biggest complaint with the Primus IQ is that I feel like I'm always fiddling with it to get the braking proportion just right, which sometimes leaves me locking up the rear tires at low speeds.
Gauges
The last upgrade I made (and highly recommend) was to purchase an ELM327-compatible Wi-Fi OBDII reader ($15-20) and the EngineLink App for iOS ($6). When towing I insert the reader into the OBDII port and connect my iPhone to the CLKDevices WiFi name, then fire up EngineLink. Based on a number of other threads I read, I added two additional gauges in order to be able to monitor the automatic transmission pan and torque converter temperatures while towing:
- Toyota A/T Pan Temp. PID 2182. Formula ((((A*256+B)*(7/100)-400)/10). Range -40 to 300. Units are F.
- Toyota A/T TC Temp. PID 2182. Formula ((((C*256+D)*(7/100)-400)/10). Range -40 to 300. Units are F.
Transmission
Because the Land Cruiser is over-built, there's no need to add a separate auxiliary transmission cooler. However, when towing you should always put the vehicle into "Sport" mode by pushing the shift lever to the left. The "Sport" (or manual shift) mode limits the vehicle to no higher than 4th gear unless you manually select 5 or 6. This is Toyota's recommendation as well.
Based on my own monitoring of transmission temperatures, 4th gear (which is 1.000:1) minimized torque converter spin and significantly reduces heat. I wrote about my experience in this posting at iH8mud:
Limiting the vehicle to 4th gear I was cruising at 65-70 in mostly flat Illinois/Wisconsin (I-94) and ran around 2800RPMs +/-. I got ~10.5MPG at that speed (the instantaneous MPG reading from OBD2 was pretty steady between 10.2 and 10.8MPG). I tried running in 5th for a while but I found I had to lay into the gas pedal more to keep it at 65, so my gas mileage actually went down. Unless I was driving 55, using OD provided no MPG benefit.
I also watched the temps closely during the trip. Outside it was ~65F out. Intake temp was reading about ~90F (typical). My trailer was at the shop getting the bearings repacked so I drove about an hour to pick it up and then about an hour after I hitched up, thus I got some great comparison #'s:
In short, don't tow in overdrive - the gas mileage difference is small and OD generates heat in the transmission, especially if the ambient temps are warmer and/or you're pulling through hilly terrain. Yes if you're pulling a 2000# 4x5x8 uhaul trailer you can probably run in 5th or 6th without any damage, but if you're pulling a smaller trailer running in your 1:1 gear (6th in your case) will have less impact on your MPG than it does for me, so the $ savings is minimal.
- Without a trailer running in top gear (6th) the transmission pan temp reached 195F (+/- 1F degree), and the torque converter was anywhere from 195F (when fully locked) to about 208F (for instance when accelerating from 60-70). The higher TC temp didn't affect the pan temp much. Once the TC locked up again at ~70MPH the temps would both stablilze around 195F again.
- With the trailer running in 4th gear the pan temp stayed around 196F (+/-1F). Both the TC and the pan temp would read the same when cruising at 65MPH. About 2/3 of the way through the trip I tried running in 5th gear (first OD). The TC temp would climb (at one point it hit 213F) and the pan slowly climbed up to about 202F over the span of about 5 minutes before I put it back in 4th. At that point the temps slowly dropped down to 195F again. Also, I definitely noticed the weight of the trailer a LOT more when towing in 5th than in 4th.
I had a second opportunity to confirm my temps this weekend when the outside ambient temperature was 86F and got nearly identical results. At 70mph on the highway the engine temp read 194F and both the pan and torque converter on the automatic transmission read 198.5F.
I understand the "A/T Temp" warning light will come on at 302F, though I hope to never confirm that.
Last Thoughts
With the proper setup (weight distribution, anti-sway, and upgraded rear springs or helper air bags), the 200-series Land Cruiser has no trouble towing a 24' travel trailer weighing 5,000 lbs. We don't intend to upgrade our trailer, but if we did I wouldn't hesitate to go up to ~26' and 6,000 lbs. While you should always follow manufacturer recommendations, I felt very comfortable cruising at 70mph and am looking forward to taking a much longer trip to Mt. Rushmore later this summer. As I said in the air bag installation posting, the Land Cruiser towed like a friggin’ champ.
20 mpg at 65? Do you have a hybrid model? Oh, yeah, they don't make a hybrid model. 
.
BTW, my LC generally runs at 6700#. I add about 700# tongue weight. I do have stiffer springs. (The progressive ones that Geoff referred to.). On my ProPride with our previous 6,000# trailer I had >900# of tongue weight but was able to level the LC with about 7-8" of lift on the ProPride's WD jacks. Some of that had to do with the angle of the stinger. With our new trailer at 5700# GVWR and 700-750 tongue weight I raise the ProPride WD jacks about 5-5.5". Again, some of that has to do with the different angle of the stinger. On the ProPrides you can adjust the stinger angle as well as the height of the stinger. On my Hensley I used the stinger with the 2" drop but my LC did not have a lift at that time.
. BTW, my LC generally runs at 6700#. I add about 700# tongue weight. I do have stiffer springs. (The progressive ones that Geoff referred to.). On my ProPride with our previous 6,000# trailer I had >900# of tongue weight but was able to level the LC with about 7-8" of lift on the ProPride's WD jacks. Some of that had to do with the angle of the stinger. With our new trailer at 5700# GVWR and 700-750 tongue weight I raise the ProPride WD jacks about 5-5.5". Again, some of that has to do with the different angle of the stinger. On the ProPrides you can adjust the stinger angle as well as the height of the stinger. On my Hensley I used the stinger with the 2" drop but my LC did not have a lift at that time.
BTW, think of the OME springs a "progressive" rates, not dual. I use the 2721 version of the coils with spring rates that run from 270 to 350. The heavier the load, the stiffer they get. I simply run the 2700s on the front with a spring rate of 625. Without my trailer connected my rear fenders sit ~22" from my hubcaps. The fronts sit about 21". With the trailer attached and WD applied they all sit about 21-21.5". At that point both the LC and trailer are very close to level.
Thanks, Dan. It seems there is little info to be found on the Icon spring rates. The one thing I like about them is they are longer and so correspondently, they raise the vehicle a bit more (1.75” lift @ rear) to match the Bilstein spring (but with progressive rates). Maybe I consider a lesser lift with the 2721s and set the front struts to establish ~1” rake I am looking for (Bilstein has strut perch settings to enable 5 front height settings).
azstreamer
GOLD Star
In my 2021 LC Owner's Manual, there is absolutely no limit given for tongue weight that I can find. If Dan above could share a page number or reference area from his manual, I would see if it might send me to a different area in the new manual.
Toyota talks about the 8,100 pound max trailer weight in several areas especially around page 194 of the 2021 OM. That implicitly implies a Group IV hitch that supports up to a 10,000 pound trailer with a 1,000 pound tongue weight. If they had said a maximum of a 8,000 pound trailer that would have still been a Group III that goes to 8,000 pounds and 800 pounds tongue weight. So with no restriction mentioned, the guidance seems to be keep the trailer under 8,100 pounds GVW and do not exceed GCVW of 14,400 pounds.
Placed an order today for the Long Range America 12.5 gallon auxiliary gas tank. Could get here in early June. The total weight installed for the tank full of gasoline is about 150 pounds out of the payload. Also found a reputable installer in the Phoenix area that the LRA folks recommended. Good to go.
Got the Tuson DL 200NE brake controller ordered. It plugs into the ODB port and wires into four of the five wires in the Toyota supplied wiring harness.
The lack of flexibility to easily adjust the vertical height of the Hensley Arrow stingers may force me into buying a second Pro-Pride (first one is on our 31" Airstream Classic). One has to send a stinger back to swap for a different drop (or rise). If I have one to trade, then I just pay the freight both ways for a stinger that gets heavier with every 2" change either up to down.. The Pro-Pride arm tensioners are a significant improvement over the Hensley Arrow. (BTW Jim Hensley also designed the second generation Hensley Arrow called the Pro-Pride...)
Also starting the suspension discussion on ways to stiffen for towing but be usable when not towing which will be most of the time.
Toyota talks about the 8,100 pound max trailer weight in several areas especially around page 194 of the 2021 OM. That implicitly implies a Group IV hitch that supports up to a 10,000 pound trailer with a 1,000 pound tongue weight. If they had said a maximum of a 8,000 pound trailer that would have still been a Group III that goes to 8,000 pounds and 800 pounds tongue weight. So with no restriction mentioned, the guidance seems to be keep the trailer under 8,100 pounds GVW and do not exceed GCVW of 14,400 pounds.
Placed an order today for the Long Range America 12.5 gallon auxiliary gas tank. Could get here in early June. The total weight installed for the tank full of gasoline is about 150 pounds out of the payload. Also found a reputable installer in the Phoenix area that the LRA folks recommended. Good to go.
Got the Tuson DL 200NE brake controller ordered. It plugs into the ODB port and wires into four of the five wires in the Toyota supplied wiring harness.
The lack of flexibility to easily adjust the vertical height of the Hensley Arrow stingers may force me into buying a second Pro-Pride (first one is on our 31" Airstream Classic). One has to send a stinger back to swap for a different drop (or rise). If I have one to trade, then I just pay the freight both ways for a stinger that gets heavier with every 2" change either up to down.. The Pro-Pride arm tensioners are a significant improvement over the Hensley Arrow. (BTW Jim Hensley also designed the second generation Hensley Arrow called the Pro-Pride...)
Also starting the suspension discussion on ways to stiffen for towing but be usable when not towing which will be most of the time.
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azstreamer
GOLD Star
I have that simple math in my manual as well on page 199. There is still no mention of that being a maximum number. Toyota explicitly states maximum trailer weight, maximum combined weight, maximum axle loads and maximum GVW of the vehicle but no where is there a published maximum tongue number in my manual. A recommendation is not a stated maximum number. One thing not mentioned is the rotational force on the receiver when cranking up the weight distribution mechanism to transfer weight to the front axle. That is far more stress on the frame than just a dead weight simple hitch.
But using the 8,100 pound trailer limit and 11% tongue weight shown generates a tongue weight of 891 pounds. My tongue weight is 29 pounds higher than that calculation which is less than 3.3% heavier. That is less than the error in commercial scales.
BTW. In the box of small parts for the LC was a draw bar with no ball rated 9,000 pounds and 900 pound tongue weight. I think that is an indicator of the Toyota towing reality. That draw bar is a Group IV device as it supports a trailer over 8,000 pounds.
But using the 8,100 pound trailer limit and 11% tongue weight shown generates a tongue weight of 891 pounds. My tongue weight is 29 pounds higher than that calculation which is less than 3.3% heavier. That is less than the error in commercial scales.
BTW. In the box of small parts for the LC was a draw bar with no ball rated 9,000 pounds and 900 pound tongue weight. I think that is an indicator of the Toyota towing reality. That draw bar is a Group IV device as it supports a trailer over 8,000 pounds.
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- Thread starter
- #698
I know I've seen the 850# number before in Toyota literature, when the tow rating was 8500#. It *may* have been in a brochure and not in the owners manual. It's also possible that it was NOT a US brochure - e.g. I've seen the 200kg (440#) roof loading number but I think that's something in the Australian literature and not in the US.
FYI regardless of the owner's manual, most class 4 hitches have a 10k # tow/1k# TW limit. Also a stock LC has a ~1265# total carrying capacity, including passengers and driver.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to load up my family of 5, cooler, and dog into my built and lifted LC, drop the 900# TW trailer on it, and go explore
FYI regardless of the owner's manual, most class 4 hitches have a 10k # tow/1k# TW limit. Also a stock LC has a ~1265# total carrying capacity, including passengers and driver.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to load up my family of 5, cooler, and dog into my built and lifted LC, drop the 900# TW trailer on it, and go explore
I am so sorry. Cleary I was mistaken. I am sure I saw the 850 number in literature somewhere. I was especially sensitive to this number when I had a Land Rover LR4 that state a tow rating of 7700 lbs but had a max tongue weight of 556 and did not want WD hitches used. (They had a funky, plug-in hitch receiver). Maybe I saw the 850 in the spec sheet on the website when I was comparing Land Cruisers and the LR4. Just to be sure I just did a search on the 2016 Owners Manual PDF and didn't find 850 anywhere. I truly apologize for providing bad guidance.
- Thread starter
- #700
