towing a 20' enclosed trailer behind an 80

[nicholas]

We have a rather big move in May from OH to AZ. Its going to be pretty spendy to rent and drive a 24' budget truck and I was wondering if I should consider buying an enclosed 20' trailer instead as I've found them for pretty cheap on the used market. I think if we downsized a bit we could jam all of our household crap in a 20 footer. We don't have anything super heavy like pianos or antique buffets but I still have no idea how much a 20' trailer would weigh if packed full to the gills.

The tow vehicle would be a supercharged 97 lx450 with a 2.5" ome lift, 315's and a 4x4 labs rear bumper. I wouldn't mind driving slow, but i still have concerns about towing with a non rated bumper and a marginally powered 80. I could install trailer brakes and airbags if this ends up being a viable option. The factory 80 tow rating is 5K but I've heard its higher in other non-us markets. Assuming we could keep the wt at 7K, would towing a 7000lb trailer behind a s/c 80 be insane?

 

[titanpat57]

Yes...you need medication...

I can certainly indentify with cost and savings. but how does that factor in against personal safety and major inconvienence?

There will be someone who'll say "sure, you do that....and more!!"...but what happens if the truck, that's not really engineered to haul 7,000 lbs (coz that's where you'll be at) can't handle it...and you don't find this out untill your a 1000 miles away from home?...then what?

Doesn't seem like a good plan, and I know the experts will say go for it, but I say why bring this on yourself if you don't have to.

Rent the truck, get there safe, and enjoy the trip.

Best of luck with the move...

Pat

 

[e9999]

my recollection of reading various discussions about towing is that 5000 lbs is about the upper end of what one can "reasonably / realistically" pull with a regular 80. No doubt some have done much more. Your S/C will help with pulling I trust but not so much so with handling and braking.

 

[Ebag333]

I'd do it in a heartbeat....as long as the trailer had brakes (and decent ones).

There will be someone who'll say "sure, you do that....and more!!"...but what happens if the truck, that's not really engineered to haul 7,000 lbs (coz that's where you'll be at) can't handle it...and you don't find this out untill your a 1000 miles away from home?...then what?

my recollection of reading various discussions about towing is that 5000 lbs is about the upper end of what one can "reasonably / realistically" pull with a regular 80. No doubt some have done much more. Your S/C will help with pulling I trust but not so much so with handling and braking.

I've heard many accounts of people pulling much heavier loads (think 9k) without issue. The tow rating for the 80 overseas is 7k lbs, that's with the N/A motor and exact same basic setup as we get here. Mr T thought no issues with towing a 7k load, it's only in the US that the tow rating magically loses 2k lbs (despite being the same vehicle).

The biggest question is the 4x4 Labs bumper. I'd trust mine completely, but I *KNOW* I built that thing to the point that it is only going to come off it it shears off every single bolt. If you have the DIY version, you'd have to trust your welding skills, if you have the pre-built version than you'd need to trust Luke's team.

The 4x4 Labs bumper may not be rated for towing, but it is much heavier duty than the tow bar I took off my truck, which was rated for 7.5k/12k lbs WC/WD (class IV). And I've seen class V hitches, I'd put the 4x4 Labs up against any one of them. Plus the design of the 4x4 Labs bumper means it's far less likely to come off the vehicle, as it wraps around the frame horns and bolts up in more spots (6 "main" bolts plus the additional bolts that the OEM tire carrier used). So IMHO, the weakest spot in the whole setup is the frame itself.



Install air bags, make sure you have good trailer brakes (no surge brakes!), and be prepared to go slow. Keep a close eye on temps, and especially take your time going up hills. Then again, hills aren't much an issue in Ohio (highest "mountain" is only 1500 feet? At least they have the honesty to call it a hill! ).



I think there's a big difference between what the vehicle is capable of, and what you want to do regularly. I wouldn't want to regularly tow anything heavier than a 3k lb boat. But for moving something, I'd happily hook up a 7k lb trailer.

 

[nicholas]

My biggest concerns are:

1)315's. IMHO the truck is downright fast with the shot/dry rot 285's that are on the 93 currently. I have a set of 5 285 ditto tg's but they are already in AZ. I'd feel much more comfortable towing with the 285's if I could get them out here first (unlikely).

2) labs bumper was bought assembled from Luke. I still need to re-weld a frame captured nut as one of the four big nuts rusted loose when I removed the OE hitch. But that can be taken care of in advance.

3) storage of the trailer when im done. I guess I could try to sell it to recoup some costs. If we ended up renting a house in Tucson with a large barren SW yard it wouldn't be a problem. Also could serve as a storage unit.

4) will a 20ft trailer chuck full of household junk really only weigh 7k? I agree with ebag on the 7k being the max for occasional towing. I really wish I would have driven over a scale the last time we moved.

Thanks for the feedback i'll keep mulling things over. The move is going to be here before I know it.

5) wear and tear on the lx. Granted its a one time deal but still.

 

[e9999]

7Klbs eh?

well, I don't have $350,000 worth of tools like some, but my tools alone probably weigh already over 7000lbs...

and let's not even talk about the rest... basically I'm stuck here. You better move while you still can...

 

[Ebag333]

1)315's. IMHO the truck is downright fast with the shot/dry rot 285's that are on the 93 currently. I have a set of 5 285 ditto tg's but they are already in AZ. I'd feel much more comfortable towing with the 285's if I could get them out here first (unlikely).

How soon before the move? If you have some time, have some 33's shipped to you from Treadwright. Cheap, and you can prolly resell them and recoup most of the cost.

Also, I've towed with 315's (~3k lbs). It's not the end of the world, just slower.

3) storage of the trailer when im done. I guess I could try to sell it to recoup some costs. If we ended up renting a house in Tucson with a large barren SW yard it wouldn't be a problem. Also could serve as a storage unit.

Portable storage unit FTW!

4) will a 20ft trailer chuck full of household junk really only weigh 7k? I agree with ebag on the 7k being the max for occasional towing. I really wish I would have driven over a scale the last time we moved.

Tell the that it's the limit, and use it as an excuse to shed a lot of unnecessary stuff from your lift.

7k of stuff is a lot. Granted the biggest chunk of that weight will be the trailer, but most household stuff isn't that heavy (bulky).

You could also look at shipping compact and heavy items via freight. Freight costs aren't horribly expensive, and would save you a lot of work. Look into partial trailer loads if you don't have enough for a full load. A lot of freight companies will cut you a huge discount if you're willing to wait as well, so if you have a bunch of gear you won't need for a couple months, ask if they can ship it in trucks that aren't completely full.

I've also seen people ship entire vehicles, lease the trailer and roll their vehicle up into it along with all their goods. Works good if you need to move multiple vehicles but don't want to drive them all. Not sure if an 80 would fit, however.

5) wear and tear on the lx. Granted its a one time deal but still.

What wear and tear? These are used as UN rigs and in mining operations. The amount of wear and tear a years worth of trips pullng a 7k trailer across the US would be like a week of average use in those environments.

Just make sure you're mainteance is up to date, and it!

 

[Elbert]

short answer... in my view it would be crazy to attempt to tow a 20ft fully loaded trailer any distance with a FJ80.

Rent the large ryder or other box van truck and move on.

 

[skersfan]

are we talking a twenty foot box, 8 foot wide 6 foot plus tall or a 16 foot box the rest the same?

Depending on what you are loading that could be a lot more than 7K and you have to figure the weight of the trailer in the max tow.

You have said the bumper. You can not tow a 20 foot trailer on a bumper hitch. That is crazy, the tongue weight would be will over what is safe.

You will need to install trailer brakes, sway control and electric brake controller. I am sure the trailer has electric brakes, if not, you will never make it.

Weight is not the problem, it is stopping that weight in an emergency situation, changing lanes in an emergency situation.

The lower the tow vehicle is the safer the project. Ensure that your weight is evenly distributed in the trailer, most load the front with all the heavy stuff, and then have a tongue weight above 1000 pounds, not good.

I would rent the moving truck, keep yourself safe and honestly mommy happier. It is a dangerous deal towing a large fully loaded trailer accross country, not knowing the roads, weahter conditions and the like. Wind is a factor on a load like that, semi's passing you will scare you to death with out sway control and will most likely anyway.

Consider your life depends on the choice you make. In my mind not a good idea.

 

[Ebag333]

You have said the bumper. You can not tow a 20 foot trailer on a bumper hitch. That is crazy, the tongue weight would be will over what is safe.

It's a 4x4 Lab's bumper. Not officially rated for towing, but it's built beefier than the Class IV tow hitch I had on my truck prior. Tongue/trailer weight isn't an issue for the bumper.

The lower the tow vehicle is the safer the project. Ensure that your weight is evenly distributed in the trailer, most load the front with all the heavy stuff, and then have a tongue weight above 1000 pounds, not good.

Indeed, 10% is about the goal for tongue weight (or 700 lbs if you're maxing it out).

 

[Elbert]

I tow my 60 which weighs close to 6K on a dual axle metal deck trailer that weighs approx 2.5K with a 3/4 ton pickup. For a couple of reasons..one I have a Class V hitch installed that is designed for that kind of weight (along with the reciver & ball etc), the truck is rated to tow that weight, it has the power to climb hills and it stops very well even loaded. THe truck does not sag on the @$$ end when loaded and the loaded trailer does not push the truck around in the curves, I have no sway contorl issues ..etc. Trailer has brakes on both axles and truck has integrated brake controller.

Brakes + towing capacity are critical.. the other part is the ability to contorl the vehicles speed with a loaded trailer going down steep grades. The 2500 pickup I have has a tow/haul mode (when enabled) that downshifts the transmission in combination with brake pressure to help control the speed of the vehicle. If it were manual trans you would downshift to get similar effect. Otherwise you will be riding your brakes hard and or manual downshifting to try and accomphlish the same. Some vehicles are not designed for this and the transmission will not do a good job of "engine braking" no matter what you do (automatic trans).

Look around at what people use to tow that kind of trailer...most likely 1 ton or 3/4 trucks.

Not a good feeling comeing down a steep hill loaded (maybe the roads are wet) and maybe you have to slow down or stop. About that time you realize you are going too fast and the loaded trailer just keeps pushing you no matter what you do. You get on the brakes hard and you either start to slide or you feel the trailer wanting to push you in one or the other direction (potential jack-knife) and what happens is that you cannot stop or slow down as you should be abel to do (not in control). Just takes one time of that and if you are lucky you just scare the the #$%* out of yourself and you don't hit anyone or wreck, if you're not lucky you have a really bad day.

Just not worth it in my view.

 

[fj40charles]

I would not tow a 7K enclosed trailer with an FJ80 for the above reasons.

Any money you save will be offset by tow rig damage (auto transmission), very very very very bad gas mileage while towing. Better hope there is not any headwind while towing the enclosed trailer.

I'm guessing you could have the vehicle shipped for less than what you'd pay for gas.

 

[Ebag333]

Brakes + towing capacity are critical.. the other part is the ability to contorl the vehicles speed with a loaded trailer going down steep grades.

This is true, but if the brakes are in good shape I do not believe it will be an issue.

True story, I was pulling a ~3k lb bass boat home, going down one of the steeper inclines we have around here (where we have real mountains ). Came around a blind corner, and a van going up hill had cut the corner and was driving in my lane. Slammed on the brakes, and went from ~30 MPH to a near stop in a surprisingly short distance (short enough to avoid the head on I swore was going to happen).

Said 3k pound boat and trailer did not have trailer brakes. Zero issues with being pushed around, funny handling, etc.

Way I figure it, if an 80 can handle a 3k lb trailer with no brakes going down an extremely steep grade and in a panic stop, it shouldn't have any problems with a 7k lb trailer with it's own braking system.

Any money you save will be offset by tow rig damage (auto transmission),

Really?

You realize that the transmissions in the 80 series are used in buses over in Japan, where they see a lot more weight and abuse than we in the States ever saddle them with? That overseas folks regularly tow 7k trailers (as that's the rated tow weight)? That in the Middle East there are people running 1FZ's pushing 1000-1400k HP on the stock transmission and t-case?

The only chance of damage is if you overheat the transmission (flogging it up hills) or don't maintain it. But that's true whether you are towing or not.

very very very very bad gas mileage while towing. Better hope there is not any headwind while towing the enclosed trailer.

So instead of 13-14 MPG he gets 10-11 MPG?

I'm guessing you could have the vehicle shipped for less than what you'd pay for gas.

That's probably true whether he tows or not....

 

[skersfan]

Trailer

Having built large trailers for nearly 30 years, towing a 45 foot fifth wheel with my FJ in side, with my dually normally 3 months a year for the past 25 years. I will say this and only this.

What someone got by with once does not corrolate with what could happen just as easily. Gravel on the road can chang the whole situation.

If you are not towing with a reciever hitch you will being over weighing the bumper, I do not care who made the bumper. There is a reason it is not rated. Too cheap to have it done, do not want the responsibility of the consequences if something happens.

This is not a safe thing to do under any circumstance. Being lucky for 2000 miles with a 3 ton plus package of dynamite behind is taking it to the limits.

I know we have all done these type of things and nothing ever happens, but the one time it does, there will not be much talking about it afterward.

I knew a guy that towed a 20 foot box with a car in it, with an old Astro van, plenty of horse power, no braking power, no base to hold a straight path in an emergency. He does not tow anything anymore, he is 6 feet under. And I told him repeatedly it could happen.

I would guess 95% of the time you get by with it, but it just takes one time. If you have kids in the car, consider that.

I have probably done things similar, just as stupid either way.

 

[Ebag333]

I knew a guy that towed a 20 foot box with a car in it, with an old Astro van, plenty of horse power, no braking power, no base to hold a straight path in an emergency. He does not tow anything anymore, he is 6 feet under. And I told him repeatedly it could happen.

I'm a little offended that you're comparing an Astro van to a Cruiser.

 

[skersfan]

I am not comparing vehicles, I am comparing the chances with said vehicle being safe in what the OP is asking questions about being safe or not.

Bottom line, the said vehicle is not rated to tow that much weight, there are no ratings on the bumper hitch he is considering using, does not have a break controller, no sway restrictions. Towing a 20 foot box with straight walls on the freeway is a lot different than pulling a car on trailer. It becomes a huge sale/flat wall when a semi passes you doing 85 miles an hour.

The last thing to consider is. If something happens, and an accident injures someone where will he stand with all the above things telling him not to do it. Could be held responsible I think.

In honesty if the situation just came up, I would most likely do it, but if I had 6 months to prepare for it, I would make corrections, upgrade to proper towing equipment and then take the chance I think. Still the truck not being rated for that type of weight is the question.

I have a FJC lifted and 35's on it. It is rated to tow 5000 pounds. It is not capable of towing half that weight safely. I can feel my expedition trailer pusing me and I have top of the line Brake controllers, 360 hitch and chains on it. Would I ever tow a 5000 pound trailer with it, not on your life. It has the horsepower, it has the braking, but does not have the sideways roll resitance in an emergency.

Not being terribly familiar with the 80, it seems that it is a narrow vehicle, could be wrong, but if it is narrow than a normal vehicle of that size, that could be the reason it is not rated higher in the US. Foot print is considered on max tow allowance.

 

[Ebag333]

Bottom line, the said vehicle is not rated to tow that much weight, there are no ratings on the bumper hitch he is considering using, does not have a break controller, no sway restrictions. Towing a 20 foot box with straight walls on the freeway is a lot different than pulling a car on trailer. It becomes a huge sale/flat wall when a semi passes you doing 85 miles an hour.

Not being terribly familiar with the 80, it seems that it is a narrow vehicle, could be wrong, but if it is narrow than a normal vehicle of that size, that could be the reason it is not rated higher in the US. Foot print is considered on max tow allowance.

80's are rated to tow 7k lbs in every country in the world, except the US. So the bottom line is that it is rated to tow that much weight.

From a technical perspective, there's no real reason why he couldn't do it. The bumper is a small concern, but (having built one) it's constructed as well or better than a Class IV hitch, which is rated for more than a 7k lb trailer. And a tow hitch isn't rocket science, it's a couple pieces of flat iron welded to a couple pieces of tube.

80's are not narrow vehicles (narrow, hah!). They're full sized SUV's, the only reason they look somewhat narrow is because they have a decently long wheel base.

In fact, everything that hurts the 80 when wheeling (long wheel base, too wide to fit through tight spots) is a bonus for towing.

The last thing to consider is. If something happens, and an accident injures someone where will he stand with all the above things telling him not to do it. Could be held responsible I think.

This is true, but the fact is that if it all goes sideways it won't matter if he's towing within or above the recommended weight. He's going to the cleaners either way, because the prosecution will find something he was negligent on. And there's plenty to choose from. Toyota has all sorts of recommended specs that we all exceed or flat out ignore. Take airbags for example, did you know you're supposed to replace them every few years as per Toyota? How many people do you know drop over two grand to replace perfectly functonal airbags?

It just takes one single component that you didn't meet Toyota's recommended spec for, and you're pretty much screwed. And the real sad part is it won't matter that many of Toyota's maintenance/replacement recommendations are either based for industrial use (such as engine rebuild every 100k km) or overly stupid safety requirements (such as airbag replacement every few years).

You do the best you can, and what what you have. I for one would be far more comfortable towing 7k lbs with my 80 than I would with my folks Ford F150 (which is rating for around 7k lbs in the US). The F150 has better power to do it, but is light enough in the rear it tends to get pushed around by their 3k lb boat, an issue I don't have with the Cruiser.

Anyway, if we were all worried about someone sueing us in an accident, we'd never lift our trucks, run different tires, add armor, or anything else that lets us have a little fun. And we wouldn't need to, because we'd be spending all our money on recommended maintanence and replacement.

 

[Elbert]

there must be some reason they make class V hitches, 3/4 and 1 ton trucks?

Do the rental truck or rent or borrow a one ton or 3/4 ton truck to pull the trailer in question.

why not drop by the local GM dealership afterhours and take a look at the factory 2.5 reciver hitch on the 3/4 ton truck and notice the weight rating....and thats on a factory hitch, then drop by a web site like e-trailer and looks at the reciever hiitches for soemthing like a 07 HD2500 class V and notice the weight rating, then of course you need the appropriate ball and ball mount. these are not bumper mounted hitches...they are recieve type hitches that bolt to the frame...huge difference in capacity.

Get a rental 20+foot box van that I think sits on a 2ton or so truck chassis and be safe. You don't take a 22 on an elephant hunt.

 

[Ebag333]

there must be some reason they make class V hitches, 3/4 and 1 ton trucks?

Class IV hitches meet the requirements to tow a 7k lb trailer. At least one of the port installed hitches on the 80 series (as part of the towing packages, there were two different manufacturers used) is a class IV hitch. Not sure about the other one, but it's pretty likely it's rated the same (same basic construction and design).

80 series drive train are quite a bit beefier than 60 series. They're beefer than many 3/4 and 1 ton trucks I've seen.

 

[fj40charles]

80 series drive train are quite a bit beefier than 60 series. They're beefer than many 3/4 and 1 ton trucks I've seen.

I'm guessing the Dana 60/70/80, 14 bolt rear axle is MUCH stronger than a 80 series rear axle.
Don't know about the 80 automatic transmission, but I'm guessing it is much weaker than a NV5600 or Allison auto transmission which is rated to tow much more weight than 7K.