Timing belt failure, 07 LC

[studawg]

Well, the mechanic just got back to me and said it looked the the WP pulley failed on it and caused the problem. He went through the procedure of replacing the TB and everything else. Upon startup, he said there was a terrible noise, and now nothing. No compression, likely bent valves. Has to tear it down.

 

[Ali SC3]

you mean they didn't pull the heads after the broken belt? they just slapped a new timing belt and waterpump on it?
being a vvti I would have had a look at the valves through the intake, if not pull the heads.
maybe its time to just drop in a replacement motor. if it needs heads or valve jobs on both sides plus labor you may be better off.
Also go yell at the dealer who skipped your waterpump if you have any spare time.

 

[arcteryx]

you mean they didn't pull the heads after the broken belt? they just slapped a new timing belt and waterpump on it?
being a vvti I would have had a look at the valves through the intake, if not pull the heads

This. I would have expected them to scope it at minimum, I guess they didn't do that? Just a shame overall.

Or remove the valve cover and have someone turn the engine over so you can see what the valves are doing. Not as good as a scope, but it gives you a visual of what cylinders are bad.

 

[studawg]

you mean they didn't pull the heads after the broken belt? they just slapped a new timing belt and waterpump on it?
being a vvti I would have had a look at the valves through the intake, if not pull the heads.
maybe its time to just drop in a replacement motor. if it needs heads or valve jobs on both sides plus labor you may be better off.
Also go yell at the dealer who skipped your waterpump if you have any spare time.

Well the belt didnt actually break, WP pulley failed causing something to go amiss and the engine just shut off. Upon examination, the TB was all chewed up and it had jumped time. Not sure if that makes a difference to your point. Doesn't sound like the mechanic did anything before he cranked it.

 

[studawg]

I just read something on a forum asking a guy, "Did you release the VVTi as per the FSM when you did your belt?" Does anyone know anything about this?

 

[aging fleet]

I just read something on a forum asking a guy, "Did you release the VVTi as per the FSM when you did your belt?" Does anyone know anything about this?

As someone who did a full timing belt job on a vvti '06, I have no idea what 'release the vvti' means.

Sorry to hear about the damage to the engine.

 

[Ali SC3]

Well the belt didnt actually break, WP pulley failed causing something to go amiss and the engine just shut off. Upon examination, the TB was all chewed up and it had jumped time. Not sure if that makes a difference to your point. Doesn't sound like the mechanic did anything before he cranked it.

it doesn't make a difference if the belt failed completely or if it jumped, unless the jump was only a couple teeth, that means its out of time and vvti is generally accepted as "can be an inteference" where the non-vvti we are all still debating. if it was bad enough for the engine to shut off with a timing belt sill somewhat on, then that is not a good sign at all and would make me want to inspect it further.

As someone who did a full timing belt job on a vvti '06, I have no idea what 'release the vvti' means.

Dunno, maybe that little service bolt that goes into the cam, mines a non vvti so am not 100% sure but vvti does make the cam movable, but there should be marks to line it all up.

 

[e9999]

you don't just simply crank up an engine after an incident like that without doublechecking (twice!) everything first IMHO...

 

[aging fleet]

Dunno, maybe that little service bolt that goes into the cam, mines a non vvti so am not 100% sure but vvti does make the cam movable, but there should be marks to line it all up.

Yea, that's what is confusing me, there are definitely timing marks to keep everything straight.

 

[Sandroad]

As tough as this is for the OP, I appreciate threads like this. So many lessons learned.........

 

[studawg]

As someone who did a full timing belt job on a vvti '06, I have no idea what 'release the vvti' means.

Sorry to hear about the damage to the engine.

Not sure either, maybe something that needs to be done only when the TB has actually broken and you are replacing it? Kind of a reset to the VVT?

it doesn't make a difference if the belt failed completely or if it jumped, unless the jump was only a couple teeth, that means its out of time and vvti is generally accepted as "can be an inteference" where the non-vvti we are all still debating. if it was bad enough for the engine to shut off with a timing belt sill somewhat on, then that is not a good sign at all and would make me want to inspect it further.



Dunno, maybe that little service bolt that goes into the cam, mines a non vvti so am not 100% sure but vvti does make the cam movable, but there should be marks to line it all up.

10-4

you don't just simply crank up an engine after an incident like that without doublechecking (twice!) everything first IMHO...

Yeah thats what I would have thought. It seems this guy basically did the same thing he would do if a 90k vehicle came in for the 90k service. Before we gave him the go ahead he said he had done lots of these before, works on a lot of high end stuff, blah blah blah I told him to check compression or do something to be sure that everything is right before he started it up to be sure that trying to start it wouldn't cause more damage. I asked him if he scoped it or did anything after he finished before he cranked it and he said "naahh". Said that the damage was already done. But when it shut off on my uncle, it didnt make any noise, it just quit. He said after he cranked it and it made the awful noise, he then checked compression and there was none. Well, duuhhh, right?

As tough as this is for the OP, I appreciate threads like this. So many lessons learned.........

I have to say, its not as tough for me as if it were my vehicle; but it is my uncle though and its a great Cruiser that he bought from me several years ago. Unfortunately, Im not learning any new lessons. Its just another example of a poor service department and a mechanic that thinks he knows what he's doing when he probably doesn't.

My uncle called the Lexus dealer back and updated him. They said he should bring the vehicle back to them so that they can be sure its done right and it will last him 10 more years, blah blah blah. I told my uncle that if they would have done what they should have done in the first place we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with. I told him to ask the dealer why he should spend the money to have the car towed back to them given the situation, they could then say it wasnt our fault and would end up charging more for labor and parts than an independent would, etc.... If they say up front they are going to take some responsibility, then it may make sense to take it to them. Now we are stuck between a rock and a hard place with deciding who to let fix it. It seems to me that both places are at fault to some degree and both are going to want the vehicle to do the work. The independent would probably be happy to just get his 1000 for his TB service and be done with it. But Im starting to think that his lack of thoroughness or whatever probably caused even further damage.

 

[arcteryx]

you don't just simply crank up an engine after an incident like that without doublechecking (twice!) everything first IMHO...

This is mind boggling. I refer you to post #16 Timing belt failure, 07 LC

Take it to ACC, forget both of those nimrods and ensure you are good for the next 100K. No use throwing good money after bad.

 

[studawg]

I hear you and I agree, but my point is if we want either of these people to take any responsibility for their work, they are gonna want to do it. Lexus isn't gonna pay for anything done by this independent and the independent isn't gonna pay for anything done by anyone else, neither are gonna pay for ACC to do anything. But if we decide to not let either do anymore, its going to Trollholes Cruisers.

 

[arcteryx]

I forgot all about Marshall!! I was not sure how close you were to him. Yes wash your hands of those two morons and take it to him. I suppose technically you could have one or both of those shops take some responsibility and they're going to give you what, a few hundred dollars off? Is the hassle and going through that worth it? Even then, there would always be the question if it was done right. At least in my mind.

I've never done business with acc but here they are really good. I have done business with Marshall and can attest he is a standup dude.

You probably already know all of this already though, it just stinks that you're in this predicament. Just try and find the path that is the least of money AND least hassle.

 

[studawg]

Yep, Marshall is a great guy that does great work and Ive done lots of business with him. I would have had the vehicle brought to him directly after this happened but, he's a couple hours away from where the cruiser was, this indy shop was right there, has good reviews and is obviously the most convenient, everyones telling me its a non-interference, nothing to worry about, (not blaming anyone here) so we decide just to let they guy do it thinking it will be fine. I think the ambiguity on the interference thing gets compounded by the fact its a VVT, then we've got another s*** service department that did the half-ass 90k service that I can't advise him to take it back to, and we have another mechanic that doesn't do his due diligence on the repair and we end up where we are. Just an epic fxxxing cluster-fail.

 

[re_guderian]

Neither of those guys is going to take any responsibility. Lexus did what was asked of therm by your uncle and by Lexus and the independent will swear it was jacked when it came in, which you can't refute. If your uncle doesn't know anything about cars, he's at the mercy of someone - make it someone you trust...

 

[2001LC]

I spoke with my parts & service guy on the issue of water pump. Asked him how long they last, they both said: Seen new ones go in only 20k, and OE over 250k and still going. Said there is really no telling.

Most dealers will recommend replace at time of TB as it is in customer best interest. I didn't change my pump while doing TB. I had the pump but was missing one seal, so I elected not to replace. Hey it was Sunday and I didn't want to wait until Monday, it checked out very tight (no play in bushing) anyway or I would have replaced.

Performing required maintenance of flushing coolant system every 30K or 2 years, as my 2001 LC requires, will yield best possible serviceable life. I use Toyota red premix or Red with demineralized water. This insure improper maintenance is not the cause of water pump failure, but nothing can guard against manufacturing defects. So I always keep and eye on coolant level. I'd investigated Low level as to cause of loss. Pumps generally start out with a very small leak 100's if not 1,000's of miles/hours before failure. That's why most if not all manufactures add a weep hole at bottom of timing cover, which makes leak detection possible.

Hint: Low coolant level, air in coolant system or stuck thermostat will keep cabinet heat from work as designed.

 

[bctlex]

... Yes wash your hands of those two morons and take it to him....

I second this. Both place has show you that they cant be trusted. Time to find a new mechanic imo...

 

[studawg]

Neither of those guys is going to take any responsibility. Lexus did what was asked of therm by your uncle and by Lexus and the independent will swear it was jacked when it came in, which you can't refute. If your uncle doesn't know anything about cars, he's at the mercy of someone - make it someone you trust...

Technically, Lexus doesn't have to take any responsibility, I know that. But they should have brought up the WP issue. I mean why wouldn't they upsell that at the 90k? I can think of 2 reasons, one is the exact reason you said earlier, to get the money later when the WP does fail, or 2 they are just ignorant of the fact of how failure prone the WP is. My uncle is a long time customer of theirs and if they want to keep his business, you would think they might want to make it right, in some way. But to do that, they are going to want the car back.

As far as the indy is concerned, it was jacked up when it was brought in. It didnt run it all. But it didnt make any noise when it shut off and didnt make any on attempted restart. But he treated it as if he was just doing a TB replacement, then cranked it up. So in a way, we can refute it. Id be surprised if he didnt cause further damage. Hard to swallow paying this guy $1000 to make problems worse.

Just try and find the path that is the least of money AND least hassle.

Yeah thats what Ive been trying to do all along, but its looking like the two are mutually exclusive. To save any money, we will have to put up with a lot of hassle, and to do the most convenient thing, we'd have to forego the money and give up any attempts to recoupe the losses, no matter where the vehicle ends up.

 

[savirc]

This is not the first time I hear about a mechanic throwing a new timing belt on a car dragged in a with a broken timing belt and cranking it up with out checking internals. The costs associated in taking it apart to "check" the internals is the similar to having to re surface the head or valves. I had a conversation with a mechanic specifically about this and he said 90% of the time replacing the belt works and their customers want to try that before they spend several hundred to "inspect" if it will work or not. Slapping a new timing belt is much cheaper but none the less a gamble some customers are willing to take. He deals mostly with cheap 4-cylinder imports