Timing belt failure, 07 LC

[Ali FJ80]

I really hope you have no damage as I am not sure of the VVTI vs. non VVTI but here is a few pics from the night before that will give an idea of how deep the reliefs are and why I dont buy the .003" of clearance.

This is the head from my sister inlaws gx470, 2uz non vvti motor. The valve seat let go and is hanging from the valve as can be seen. It was driven all the way home like this for many miles. I think its fair to say it is hanging down more than .003".

Here is the corresponding piston which shows no real damage in the relief area. Only nick is on the side of the relief where it really had no where to go and still its a very small nick(circled in red).

I would think if there was only .003" of clearance the piston face should have been chewed up with that ring hanging off the valve. Also the valve seat itself aside from hanging around the valve does not look like it is deformed or beat up which you would also expect if there was no room and it was being crushed between the valve and piston over and over again for a few miles.

Just my $.02

 

[2001LC]

We've seen numerous reports of the non vvti TB breaking under load at high RPM with no damage, in this forum. I've not seen one I8mud'er report of damage in vvti or non.

That said: I could possible/maybe see a poorly maintained very loose non vvti engine (carbon build-up, camshaft journals & bearings out of spec, value/lifter clearance too tight, very weak value springs, valve stem stretched & guide out of spec, warped head, piston pins worn, connecting rods bushing worn, connecting rod bearing gap to loose, crank bearing surfaces worn and overheating) it could happen....right..

 

[04UZJ100]

I really hope you have no damage as I am not sure of the VVTI vs. non VVTI but here is a few pics from the night before that will give an idea of how deep the reliefs are and why I dont buy the .003" of clearance.

This is the head from my sister inlaws gx470, 2uz non vvti motor. The valve seat let go and is hanging from the valve as can be seen. It was driven all the way home like this for many miles. I think its fair to say it is hanging down more than .003".

Here is the corresponding piston which shows no real damage in the relief area. Only nick is on the side of the relief where it really had no where to go and still its a very small nick(circled in red).

I would think if there was only .003" of clearance the piston face should have been chewed up with that ring hanging off the valve. Also the valve seat itself aside from hanging around the valve does not look like it is deformed or beat up which you would also expect if there was no room and it was being crushed between the valve and piston over and over again for a few miles.

Just my $.02

Why is the inside so disgusting? Was it maintained at all?

 

[Ali FJ80]

Not sure, was bought used with 260k miles on it for very cheap due to a slight knock which was probably the seat coming loose and it eventually let go completely a couple months later.

 

[Ali SC3]

Cylinder head is actually pretty clean if you look at the mating surfaces, the last cylinder is dirty inside, well cause there is a broken valve seat so there was no compression so there was no combustion to clean things up like the other 3. I think you could have figured that out yourself, the one with combustion next to it looks clean.

On the engine side, when you pull the head the crap on the side of the headgasket in the "V" of the motor thats been sitting for years falls in, and it was not vacuumed out before this picture so there is some dust/dirt on the pistons. I will vacuum it first next time lol.

All cylinders came out at 180 psi on the compression test except the one with the broken valve seat (obviously).
So Motor was very well maintained to have full compression at 256k, I just didn't clean anything before I took the picture.

 

[studawg]

I really hope you have no damage as I am not sure of the VVTI vs. non VVTI but here is a few pics from the night before that will give an idea of how deep the reliefs are and why I dont buy the .003" of clearance.

This is the head from my sister inlaws gx470, 2uz non vvti motor. The valve seat let go and is hanging from the valve as can be seen. It was driven all the way home like this for many miles. I think its fair to say it is hanging down more than .003".

Here is the corresponding piston which shows no real damage in the relief area. Only nick is on the side of the relief where it really had no where to go and still its a very small nick(circled in red).


I would think if there was only .003" of clearance the piston face should have been chewed up with that ring hanging off the valve. Also the valve seat itself aside from hanging around the valve does not look like it is deformed or beat up which you would also expect if there was no room and it was being crushed between the valve and piston over and over again for a few miles.

Just my $.02

I really don't know but it was my understanding that the .003" is the minimum, when the two are at their closest point, not necessarily when that valve is seated and the piston is at the top of its stroke. Is that an exhaust valve or intake? When that valve is extended, is the piston up or down? Im just throwing this out there to try and make sense of it all. What I do know is my source said he had personally seen cases of damage due to TB failure, and I have no reason not to believe him. I don't know why he would make that up.

 

[studawg]

Turns out that the Lexus dealer did NOT replace the WP when they did the TB at 91k. It probably failed, or some other part that they didnt do, and caused this. That is annoying because my uncle is the type to take his car to the dealer, and just pay for whatever they tell him needs to be done. Leads me to believe they didnt even suggest doing the WP at the time.

 

[arcteryx]

Turns out that the Lexus dealer did NOT replace the WP when they did the TB at 91k. It probably failed, or some other part that they didnt do, and caused this. That is annoying because my uncle is the type to take his car to the dealer, and just pay for whatever they tell him needs to be done. Leads me to believe they didnt even suggest doing the WP at the time.

That's terrible. Any mechanic/service adviser should always do that in pairs. Shame on them!

 

[Warde]

Slightly off topic, but when looking at a vehicle that is due for a WP + TB service, how much should you knock off the price? I am looking at a 98 that is 100,000 on its current belt

 

[jgray]

Slightly off topic, but when looking at a vehicle that is due for a WP + TB service, how much should you knock off the price? I am looking at a 98 that is 100,000 on its current belt

I would ask for $1000 allowance for the needed timing belt and parts replacement. A Toyota dealership will charge about that to do the full service and if you do it yourself you can do it for few hundred if you by all Toyota OEM parts.

 

[studawg]

Slightly off topic, but when looking at a vehicle that is due for a WP + TB service, how much should you knock off the price? I am looking at a 98 that is 100,000 on its current belt

Ive seen estimates anywhere from $400 to $1000, some variation due to how many parts are replaced, OEM parts or not and sometimes they just like to gouge you.

 

[Ali SC3]

Well my timing belt wasn't broken (on the above pics) so the valve and piston would have some clearance. I still think that without carbon buildup or vvti these motors are likely non-inteference. the other thought is that when the belt fails the valves wont stick all teh way down cause the cams will rotate to a spot where its balanced from the valve spring pressure, which is a little after TDC (you set it here to pull the cams off by the book, not at TDC).

The number one breaker of timing belts is a siezed water pump. people talking about how a belt looks after 200k miles always cracks me up, because the belt can be perfect, but the day the waterpump siezes, it kicks the timing belt which can cause them to snap and when they are flying out of their home, they usually take out the tensioner and the timing covers with it.

Always do the waterpump with the timing belt, the waterpump is actually the one that is more likely to fail, and it gets blamed on the belt way too often. water from a leaking pump can also wear out the belt prematurely, as well as oil from cam leaks. Once you go past 120k on a waterpump, its a gamble, its as simple as that. some last way past 200k, some fail way earlier.

If I was looking at one that needed the service I would ask for 1k off the price, its probably a little less than that but its fair cause something could happen after doing it that you might have to deal with, not every dealer tech is perfect at doing them.

 

[Warde]

@89cruiserfj62 @jgray Thanks guys, its at a Lexus dealer, we're negotiating and I tell him roll the service into the price and perform it there so I know its done before I buy but he says they wont do it there. I'll have to drive it the 45 miles back and drop it off at my guy to do it, which will take a day.

If only it had an L on the front, they would do the service

 

[mcgaskins]

Turns out that the Lexus dealer did NOT replace the WP when they did the TB at 91k. It probably failed, or some other part that they didnt do, and caused this. That is annoying because my uncle is the type to take his car to the dealer, and just pay for whatever they tell him needs to be done. Leads me to believe they didnt even suggest doing the WP at the time.

When I had my timing belt on my 1998 with ~130k miles about a year ago (the truck's first timing belt I might add), the dealership repeatedly told me NOT to replace the water pump. I had to insist 3x to get them to change it and obviously said I would pay for the part plus any additional labor, and the service writer seriously acted like I was crazy. It is very common for shops to not suggest the WP at the same time which is shocking if you ask me considering they stand to make more money off the job. Always insist on doing everything at the same time: timing belt, water pump, tensioners, pulleys, etc.

 

[studawg]

When I had my timing belt on my 1998 with ~130k miles about a year ago (the truck's first timing belt I might add), the dealership repeatedly told me NOT to replace the water pump. I had to insist 3x to get them to change it and obviously said I would pay for the part plus any additional labor, and the service writer seriously acted like I was crazy. It is very common for shops to not suggest the WP at the same time which is shocking if you ask me considering they stand to make more money off the job. Always insist on doing everything at the same time: timing belt, water pump, tensioners, pulleys, etc.

Interesting, thats really weird, I don't understand why they would do that.

 

[jclarke450]

I would ask the dealer why every aftermarket TB kit(that I have seen) includes a new water pump. Even the Non-OEM parts people would shudder at not doing the WP when you do the TB. I would find a new dealer. That's just ludicrous to me.

 

[arcteryx]

I would ask the dealer why every aftermarket TB kit(that I have seen) includes a new water pump. Even the Non-OEM parts people would shudder at not doing the WP when you do the TB. I would find a new dealer. That's just ludicrous to me.

Excellent point. Actually every OEM kit has them. There are 2 types, with and without the hydraulic tensioner. Both include the water pumps.


http://www.amazon.com/Aisin-TKT-021-Engine-Timing-Water/dp/B008EEYWKI

http://www.amazon.com/Aisin-TKT-001-Engine-Timing-Water/dp/B00725CM34

 

[re_guderian]

Interesting, thats really weird, I don't understand why they would do that.

Uh.. cuz they can charge you the same labor twice to come back and do the pump next year???

 

[studawg]

I would ask the dealer why every aftermarket TB kit(that I have seen) includes a new water pump. Even the Non-OEM parts people would shudder at not doing the WP when you do the TB. I would find a new dealer. That's just ludicrous to me.

Yep, I advised my uncle years ago to avoid this particular dealer...

 

[studawg]

Uh.. cuz they can charge you the same labor twice to come back and do the pump next year???

I shouldn't be surprised I guess.