Thoughts on running without front sway bar with air shocks? (1 Viewer)

[4wheelspulling]

Hello,
Asking questions to get a good game plan on my stock 97' FZJ80. Looking at running a 2" progressive spring lift with 31" tires and 4:10 gears. I would like to use Rancho 9000 air adjustable shocks with my lift. I have them on my Jeep and love them. With the set-up I just described, do you think it should work to deliberately take off the front sway bar? Hope to hear responses from those not running front sway bar. Hopefully get more front end articulation, and still drive down the road safely? Thanks, Vance.

 

[Mandrake]

31's are stock sized tires, so why bother with a lift? Keep it low and stable. Want more ground clearance? Bigger tires. Also, 4.10's are stock gears (or 4.11, depending on who you ask).

As for your actual question... go try it and see how you like it. If I recall, you can disconnect the end links and secure the bar up and out of the way to test how it drives without actually removing the whole thing. In regards to the safety aspect... no, it's not safe. But neither is drinking tap water or breathing air, so use your own judgement and make up your own mind.

*edit- it's your rig and you can do whatever you want, but if you want a solid game plan, modify it based on personal experience and not what you read others doing on here. When I bought mine, I was all about that 4" Slee lift, 35's, 5.29 gears, bla bla bla... But then I started just wheeling it and decided to address each aspect as cheaply as possible. Turns out, all I needed was what's in my signature. It's a solid, simple setup that cost me about a grand between the tires, coil spacers and body lift.

 

[4wheelspulling]

31's are stock sized tires, so why bother with a lift? Keep it low and stable. Want more ground clearance? Bigger tires. Also, 4.10's are stock gears (or 4.11, depending on who you ask).

As for your actual question... go try it and see how you like it. If I recall, you can disconnect the end links and secure the bar up and out of the way to test how it drives without actually removing the whole thing. In regards to the safety aspect... no, it's not safe. But neither is drinking tap water or breathing air, so use your own judgement and make up your own mind.

*edit- it's your rig and you can do whatever you want, but if you want a solid game plan, modify it based on personal experience and not what you read others doing on here. When I bought mine, I was all about that 4" Slee lift, 35's, 5.29 gears, bla bla bla... But then I started just wheeling it and decided to address each aspect as cheaply as possible. Turns out, all I needed was what's in my signature. It's a solid, simple setup that cost me about a grand between the tires, coil spacers and body lift.

Mandrake,
Don't take this the wrong way. I do have a solid game plan! Thank you for your reply. But, I do not agree with you on all points. You are right that I can run 31" tires without a lift. And looking up my vin number with Toyota, I have 4.10 gears, so okay without regearing my axles. That is not the reason for the lift! The lift is move some of the components up out of harms way, making more room for sliders, for rocker protection, and to help approach angles. And getting high centered in the snow. Also, at 190k, it would be good to have new springs, shocks, bushings, ball joints and more as just general maintenance items, and piece of mind. It is also much easier to install chains in the winter with more wheel well space. Doing a 2" lift is about a $1000. All this is based on my personal experience! I have run Rancho 9000 on my Jeep, and love the fact that I can adjust the shocks on the fly. Should work the same on a setup like I am doing to the Landcruiser.

 

[Qball]

Mandrake,
Don't take this the wrong way. I do have a solid game plan! Thank you for your reply. But, I do not agree with you on all points. You are right that I can run 31" tires without a lift. And looking up my vin number with Toyota, I have 4.10 gears, so okay without regearing my axles. That is not the reason for the lift! The lift is move some of the components up out of harms way, making more room for sliders, for rocker protection, and to help approach angles. And getting high centered in the snow. Also, at 190k, it would be good to have new springs, shocks, bushings, ball joints and more as just general maintenance items, and piece of mind. It is also much easier to install chains in the winter with more wheel well space. Doing a 2" lift is about a $1000. All this is based on my personal experience! I have run Rancho 9000 on my Jeep, and love the fact that I can adjust the shocks on the fly. Should work the same on a setup like I am doing to the Landcruiser.

I had the 9000 on the 80 and here is my opinion on them:

It's MUCH harder to get under the 80 to adjust the shocks compared to the jeep, the shocks simply are exposed like the keeps.

The ranchos don't have enough rebound for the 80 especially when you add more weight

Rancho is stock length only so if you lift your 80 2 inches that means you lose 2 inches of travel. The really cheap OEM shock will give you better ride compared to rancho for sure.


Get a cheap set of 2 inch lift fox if you don't plan on adding weight, if you do plan on adding weight(bumpers, sliders, drawers, rack, tool, parts......)stick with OME if you are on a budget or go straight to Kings if you some coins to toss.

 

[4wheelspulling]

I had the 9000 on the 80 and here is my opinion on them:

It's MUCH harder to get under the 80 to adjust the shocks compared to the jeep, the shocks simply are exposed like the keeps.

The ranchos don't have enough rebound for the 80 especially when you add more weight

Rancho is stock length only so if you lift your 80 2 inches that means you lose 2 inches of travel. The really cheap OEM shock will give you better ride compared to rancho for sure.


Get a cheap set of 2 inch lift fox if you don't plan on adding weight, if you do plan on adding weight(bumpers, sliders, drawers, rack, tool, parts......)stick with OME if you are on a budget or go straight to Kings if you some coins to toss.

Qball, now you have me thinking I am wrong about the shocks on my CJ7? I can adjust them from inside the cab. With the weight of the FZJ80, I am thinking like 2-1/2" diameter shocks with the thicker piston. Are all the OME shocks valved the same? Or do the shocks with the heavy springs come with different valving? I though I could compensate for winch, duel batteries and bumper with the air shocks. Thought no problem to get them longer?

 

[4wheelspulling]

31's are stock sized tires, so why bother with a lift? Keep it low and stable. Want more ground clearance? Bigger tires. Also, 4.10's are stock gears (or 4.11, depending on who you ask).

As for your actual question... go try it and see how you like it. If I recall, you can disconnect the end links and secure the bar up and out of the way to test how it drives without actually removing the whole thing. In regards to the safety aspect... no, it's not safe. But neither is drinking tap water or breathing air, so use your own judgement and make up your own mind.

*edit- it's your rig and you can do whatever you want, but if you want a solid game plan, modify it based on personal experience and not what you read others doing on here. When I bought mine, I was all about that 4" Slee lift, 35's, 5.29 gears, bla bla bla... But then I started just wheeling it and decided to address each aspect as cheaply as possible. Turns out, all I needed was what's in my signature. It's a solid, simple setup that cost me about a grand between the tires, coil spacers and body lift.

Mandrake,
Thanks for you suggestions! I did not mean to come off snarky in my response! If I come up with a little more money to work with, I will regrear and go to 33"s. This will be more of a "expedition build". Still capable, but I have a built wheeling rig, CJ7, that works great for the hard core stuff. Maybe should not even build the 80, but I just can't seem to not leave anything stock, ex specially a FZJ 80, haha.

 

[Heckraiser]

Regear (or lift) is not necessary for 33's. There is even some debate as to whether you want to re-gear for 35's. I have 35's and drive at high altitude and it's honestly not that terrible (no extra weight though).

I know this isn't the topic of this thread, and is definitely unsolicited advice. I'm not trying to be rude, just offering my $.02, but:

Drive the truck for a while and avoid the temptation to modify anything. You'll find a stock fzj80 will do just about anything you ask it to. Including wearing 34" tires and any type of "expedition" wheeling you'd like to do. Once you're familiar with it's capabilities and made sure it's all good maintenance-wise, then consider spending money on upgrades. A lot of people here (myself included) have spent boatloads of money on upgrades only to take them off and go in a different direction later. Maybe spend some time with the truck and let your experiences determine the direction you want to go before you buy anything.

 

[BILT4ME]

Yeah, I'll be the dick....

It ain't a Jeep thing. You don't understand.

 

[4wheelspulling]

Guys,
Good points that one should consider. I have been driving the FZJ80 now for about 2yrs. and 30,000 miles. As, I am not working do to health issues, I wheel more than most people. I have too many rigs, that I can drive and have had many, many 4wheel drive vehicles. The road to my home gains 2000' in 4-1/2 miles. I live out in the sticks and would not have it any other way. I do not have to leave my property to find a place to wheel. Many miles all around me to do the same. I understand this is a yota site, I have been reading it for close to 15 yrs. But just remember, that while yota's are capable wheeling trucks, there are others that do so too.

 

[Qball]

Qball, now you have me thinking I am wrong about the shocks on my CJ7? I can adjust them from inside the cab. With the weight of the FZJ80, I am thinking like 2-1/2" diameter shocks with the thicker piston. Are all the OME shocks valved the same? Or do the shocks with the heavy springs come with different valving? I though I could compensate for winch, duel batteries and bumper with the air shocks. Thought no problem to get them longer?

They have discontinued remote control for the 9000 so if you have a working one keep it or sell on eBay for good money!

OME shocks are all valves the same, heavy! They have different springs for different weight, a quick search on mud or their site should give you a lot of info. Bumper, dual batteries and winch will need J springs for a nice ride, heavy for a bit firmer ride and competition(think 4 or 6 inch only) for a firm ride with a bit more bottom out resistance. They been making these springs for a long time so they know what they are doing. Make sure you need keep lift under 3 inches or you will spend a lot more money on a lot of other things.

Heavy rigs, low to medium budget, 2 inch lift and OME is a really sweet conbo that can't be beat.....unless you spend a crapload more money. Ranchos 9000 are good OEM replacement but will not be good for lifted and heavy rigs.

 

[Qball]

Another quick thing I want to mention, the weight difference between a jeep and a loaded 80 could be as much as a Miata! Just check out the size of the springs on a JK vs OME or Slee.

So shocks that works for jeeps definitely will not have enough damping for the 80, so when buying shocks make sure they are valved for a loaded 80. It makes all the difference in the world.

 

[4wheelspulling]

Qball, Thanks for the information. Not a lot of extra power now with stock gears and 31" tires. So, even though some don't, I will regear for bigger tires, even on 33"s.

 

[elripster]

I would not remove the front sway bar. This will increase the truck's tendency to oversteer and is a very bad idea for an on-road rig. In fact, if anything, you wan to ensure the front end is stiffer, at least when on road, then the rear which encourages the front wheels to push/plow which is more recoverable and less likely to initiate a roll over than oversteer. This is especially true in a 4X4.

Often folks misinterpret heavily damped shocks as "stiffer", but this is not the case. The ride might be rougher with heavily damped shocks but the reaction forces when cornering will ultimately be up to each axle's roll stiffness which is a function of spring rates.

If there is a desire to get more flex off road and disconnecting the front sway bar each time is not in the cards fabbing up a disconnect method for road would be the way to go. That said, the 80 series is one truck I never disconnect either sway bar and it seems to flex out just fine. I have always done this on past vehicles. I suspect the weight of the 80 overcomes the sway bar rather easily, you will have to see how it works for you.

Frank

 

[Mandrake]

Mandrake,
Thanks for you suggestions! I did not mean to come off snarky in my response!

No apology necessary. I'm not a pussy, so I don't get my feelers hurt when someone tells it how it is.

 

[4wheelspulling]

Thanks Frank.

 

[malteserunner]

I run more lift, and 37" tires. No front sway bar on my rig. You'll be fine.


-insert legal disclaimer here....

 

[malteserunner]

I would not remove the front sway bar. This will increase the truck's tendency to oversteer and is a very bad idea for an on-road rig. In fact, if anything, you wan to ensure the front end is stiffer, at least when on road, then the rear which encourages the front wheels to push/plow which is more recoverable and less likely to initiate a roll over than oversteer. This is especially true in a 4X4. .....

..... That said, the 80 series is one truck I never disconnect either sway bar and it seems to flex out just fine. I have always done this on past vehicles. I suspect the weight of the 80 overcomes the sway bar rather easily, you will have to see how it works for you.

Frank

You have valid points, Frank.

The highlighted point slightly contradicts the reasoning in the first paragraph. May be just the way I'm reading it.

 

[elripster]

Actually it doesn't, one just has to look a level or two deeper into how this works. Traction between rubber and a road is not a linear function of weight applied. It's actually a quadratic relationship. With heavy vehicles and hard compound tires we are in the diminishing part of the curve. This means as the truck is leaning the traction on the outer wheels while increasing is doing so at a slower rate than the force is increasing. Conversely, light vehicles which sticky tires are in the part of the curve that increased faster than weight is applied hence why hyper sports cars can pull over 1G on a skid pad.

Thought experiment: The truck is going into a turn, the weight is transferring to the outer wheels. Ideally, the front axle roll stiffness his higher than that of the rear axle. This increases the weight, which is going up with increase cornering load, increase on the front wheel faster than weight is increasing on the rear wheel. This pushes the front farther into the diminishing range of the traction curve and encourages the front end to push/plow. Thus, it is not that the 80 overcomes its sway bars on the trail that matters, it is the difference in roll stiffness, which is heavily impacted by the sway bar, that matters here. We can't play tricks with camber, cambering in the rear and out the front, so roll stiffness is all we have to play with when it comes to designing in or preferably out oversteer.

Another way to visualize this and is a real possibility, is the truck goes into a turn, leans, the front being more compliant keeps the axle square with the ground, the rear with more roll stiffness lifts the inside rear wheel. This is bad, very bad. The rear is riding on the outer edge of the outer rear wheel and oversteer is eminent. I found this out once playing with sway bars the hard way. I didn't wreck, I had given myself lots of room, but it make for a high sphincter tension situation.

Many years later after becoming an ME I took on a side project to design a chassis and did a lot of reading on this subject and had one of those "ah ha" moments when it explained in technical terms what I had experienced years earlier.

Frank

 

[bloc]

my rig got scary when I removed the rear bar. Front didn't seem to make a huge difference.. though I did end up putting it back on, if that's any indication.

 

[retrofive]

Lots of opinions and whatnot here. Rear sway stays, haven't driving with front in years. Can't say i noticed. J's and longs on the corners, 35's and <gasp> stock gears.