AltFuel Supplemental Hydrogen Generator

[joshoisasleep]

Aren't "laws" of physics proven wrong on a regular basis by the world's top scientists... setting new laws? Isn't that the way science is supposed to work? That you make new discoveries and learn more about the way the world works with each one? I mean, it's not supposed to be religion!

You don't have to be an expert to stumble on something that was there all along...

 

[Dougal]

Aren't "laws" of physics proven wrong on a regular basis by the world's top scientists... setting new laws? Isn't that the way science is supposed to work? That you make new discoveries and learn more about the way the world works with each one? I mean, it's not supposed to be religion!

You don't have to be an expert to stumble on something that was there all along...

The laws of thermodynamics haven't been broken yet and people have been trying for centuries. I haven't heard of any laws of physics being broken or any recent discovery which was previously impossible.
New methods and materials are making things possible that before were very difficult or uneconomic, but everything that claimed to violate the laws of thermodynamics has turned out to be either a mistake or fraud.
Trying to run a car on water is like trying to set fire to a pile of ashes.

The laws of thermodynamics.
First law: You cannot win, you can only break even.
Second law: You can only break even at absolute zero.
Third law: You cannot get to absolute zero.

In real terms this means that everytime you convert energy from one form to another you lose some. Claiming to create energy (like in a water car) is impossible.

 

[joshoisasleep]

err... the claim of the water car is to burn the hydrogen that's in the water, right? That was my assumption anyway... I don't see how that creates energy.

Maybe it's just my imagination as I can't come up with anything to show, but I feel like I'm always reading articles about scientists making breakthroughs that change or break previous "laws"...

 

[Dougal]

err... the claim of the water car is to burn the hydrogen that's in the water, right? That was my assumption anyway... I don't see how that creates energy.

Maybe it's just my imagination as I can't come up with anything to show, but I feel like I'm always reading articles about scientists making breakthroughs that change or break previous "laws"...

To split the hydrogen from water takes more energy than you can ever get from burning the hydrogen.
If the method used to split the hydrogen out is 50% efficient and you managed to get 50% back when you burn the hydrogen then it would take 4 times the energy to split the hydrogen out than you can get back.

 

[joshoisasleep]

sorry to get a bit off topic here. Doesn't water injection do something along the lines of burning the hydrogen in the water? My body also is able to utilize water... is that really just for lubrication?

 

[Dougal]

sorry to get a bit off topic here. Doesn't water injection do something along the lines of burning the hydrogen in the water? My body also is able to utilize water... is that really just for lubrication?

Water injection is just internal cooling and using the expansion when it changes to steam, the water isn't burnt.
Your body uses water for heating/cooling, transport of nutrients, removal of waste and I guess a little lubrication too. One of the reasons hangovers feel so bad is the alcohol strips some of the water from your body.

 

[american psycho]

The laws of thermodynamics.
First law: You cannot win, you can only break even.
Second law: You can only break even at absolute zero.
Third law: You cannot get to absolute zero.

Well put. But you seem to be forgetting the harmonic resonance that also comes into play in splitting these water molecules .

 

[83bj60]

Am I reading sarcasm here by any chance?

I'm still waiting on actual figures of cost of producing hydrogen and savings in actual mileage gains...

Like I said before I'm not disputing the benefits of supplemental hydrogen in a diesel engine, but the cost effectiveness of it.

This can only be measured on a dyno. Anecdotal evidence is just that. I can save 25% simply by being conscious of saving fuel when I'm driving.

 

[cody c]

these HHO products are all a hoax, we should all just believe what the goverment and scientists say and follow blindly to the gas pump or the middle east, even if a LOT of people are making claims with unsubstantiated evidence to get this to work, and alot of people have been threatened to not tell people that this works.


Or not.

 

[83bj60]

Nono, the claim that hydrogen injection improves diesel combustion is not a hoax, it's the claim that it costs less to produce hydrogen than what hydrogen brings back in the form of mechanical energy through its combustion that is.

In other words, it's not the effects of adding hydrogen that are questioned, but the claim that it costs very little to produce and gives a greater amount of energy back that is.

BIG Difference! And the source of most of the confusion about this question.

Adding hydrogen in the intake air is probably quite effective, but I'd still love to see actual test results to see how effective it is, though...

 

[seapotato]

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[Dougal]

yep, that's just it. I have a pretty hard time believing that every single person who's built one of these or installed one, and then claimed it improved their mileage is either mistaken or lying. [/.quote]

The problem is, no-one has been scientific enough with their test to quantify it.
This data certainly is interesting, it's from the "hydrogen-boost.com" website and the origin of the data is supressed. But the data shows no improvement with the browns gas generator.
Hydrogen-Boost

At 100% throttle on dino-diesel the engine is producing slightly less torque at each rpm, but well within the expected margins of error.
At 75%,50% and 25% there are a few bits of strange data, possibly measurement errors which skew different points each way but overall there's no difference between the engines performance with or without the generators presence.

Yet when the turkey on the site is "discussing" the data, he's impressed with the increase in torque with the generator on. Despite the raw numbers showing no significant difference and the "with" numbers being lower in many instances.
Hydrogen Boost Brown?s Gas Joe Cell HHO Water Car Save fuel mpg</

maybe I'll get mine installed soon. still messing with getting more output from it. barely 1lpm at the moment, but it needs to break in a bit.

Is your 1 litre per minute with or without an "electrolyte" added to the solution?
The addition of an electrolyte makes the current heat the water, creating water vapour. Without an electrolyte you'll only be producing hydrogen and oxygen, you'll see how slow this really is.

 

[seapotato]

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[Dougal]

you're arguing in the wrong place, log in here ---> Hydrogen Generator :: Index and fly at er.

A whole new audience for you.

theres another entrenched engineer in there,he was using all your arguments. He even specializes in thermodynamics and energy transfer.
although, now he's building a cell after reading the very same websites as you...interpretation is something aint it?




Anyways that's it for me. not my job to defend these things. it's getting rather tiresome.



(And no, I'm not filling bottles with water vapor. )

Going to site called "hydrogengenerator.cc" and telling them it doesn't work would be as fruitful as selling chainsaws to the sierra club.

I know other engineers who're building them too. Mainly to prove they don't work.

 

[seapotato]

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[gerg]

I went to that page out of interest and read through the myriad of dyno results. It was a little confusing. First thing I saw right off the bat was the diesel dyno at 2100 rpm.
It showed significant increase in torque and hp with a dramatic decrease in fuel consumption.
Now I know that you can have variations in dyno results back to back, but these differences were impressive.
Hp increased 20%
Torque increased 20%
fuel consumption decreased 25%
This is enough to convince me that I need to put this to the test.
G

 

[Dougal]

I went to that page out of interest and read through the myriad of dyno results. It was a little confusing. First thing I saw right off the bat was the diesel dyno at 2100 rpm.
It showed significant increase in torque and hp with a dramatic decrease in fuel consumption.
Now I know that you can have variations in dyno results back to back, but these differences were impressive.
Hp increased 20%
Torque increased 20%
fuel consumption decreased 25%
This is enough to convince me that I need to put this to the test.
G

Which data set are you looking at. I stuck to petroleum diesel as that fuel will be far more consistent than the vegetable oil or biodiesel blends.
At 2100rpm and full throttle the torque produced is the same (184.7Nm vs 185.1Nm).
The fuel consumption shows as different, but I think this isn't possible. At 100% throttle a diesel injects exactly the same volume of fuel every stroke.
At 2300 rpm it shows exactly the same fuel consumption with/without, the fuel figures also show less fuel being used at higher rpm, (both with and without).
I think they've got measurement errors.

If they'd eased up on the fuel delivery to keep the output the same, it would be shown as a lower throttle setting.

 

[Dougal]

what, not up for arguing with experts on the subject rather than folks who find it interesting?


then we'll just have to accept that everyone is mistaken or lying.


seems perfectly reasonable.


out.

I had a read through the "post your fuel mileage" sticky on that site. There's nothing of substance and only 2 claims in 8 pages of waffling.
The first is the hydrotech guy who got 62mpg and now claims 74mpg from a 350 chev at 65mph.
The second was a guy who went from 15 to 17.5 mpg based on one run.

A 350 chev uses around 4 litres of petrol an hour just idling. So if you towed an idling 350chev at 100km/h you still couldn't achieve the 74mpg that is claimed.

Then there's the guy who made a cell which draws 8 milliwatts and produces 48 litres per minute of hydrogen at very high pressure.
When he switches of the power it continues to produce gas at 45 litres per minute.
Total power input, 13.6volts and 0.0056 milliamps.
I want some of what he's smoking.
http://hydrogengenerator.cc/viewtopic.php?t=1157

But hey, it's a free world so believe what you want to.

 

[gerg]

I have had a really hard time getting around all of the crap that people claim. All of the generators I have seen that can produce any kind of volume seem to seriously suck the amps.
I see what you mean by easing off the fuel to achieve that same power. I was looking at the 75% power setting in regards to my figures.
I guess ill just have to see for myself. Some how I cant see how this would work well in a diesel without adjusting the injection timing. It will go onto my "to do" list. Along with the hundred or so years worth of work I have to do to my house and yard.
G

 

[seapotato]

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