Supercharger + Turbo

[R2HKS]

Has anybody here done a supercharger + turbo install, especially for a 3B, if so how have you set it up supercharger blowing through the turbo or separate.

Don't know if you guys know but Toyota made a supercharger for a 4AGZE (though too small) and another for a 2L 1GGZE. Both are underbonnet, both can be hooked up to a switch to turn them on or off by disabling enabling the clutch.

I'm not sure exactly how I would install the s/charger on the 3B with the alternator/vacuum pump setup but here's some thought I had on setting it up:

S/charger can be switch operated as I said. I would change the pulley to give more boost at low rpm's. Not sure whether I would route the air from the SC through the turbo or use a Y pipe with solenoid to switch between the SC and turbo when the turbo is fully spooled.

Say if I used a larger turbo and it came on boost at 2,500 rpm I could then setup the SC to turn off at 2,500rpm and run on the turbo only. That way I could setup the SC with the different pully size to get 13-14psi by 2,500 then the turbo takes over with say over 14psi up to maybe 30 psi.

 

[crushers]

has Behemouth moved to Oz?
Peter has obviously been infecting the boys down under...

(Peter was considering doing this to his 1HZ till he lost interest...)

 

[R2HKS]

has Behemouth moved to Oz?
Peter has obviously been infecting the boys down under...

(Peter was considering doing this to his 1HZ till he lost interest...)

LOL it sounds like me and Peter would get on in our never ending quest for hp. Does he still frequent here? How can I get in touch with him?

 

[Gold Boy]

Its not a 3b.. But this link may be of some help.

http://www.pps.net.au/4wdencounter/articles/supercharger_100.html

GB

 

[crushers]

LOL it sounds like me and Peter would get on in our never ending quest for hp. Does he still frequent here? How can I get in touch with him?

do a search for behemoth and he will be there, he usually comes here to stir up trouble then goes away for a while...

 

[Greg_B]

Has anybody here done a supercharger + turbo install, especially for a 3B, if so how have you set it up supercharger blowing through the turbo or separate.

Don't know if you guys know but Toyota made a supercharger for a 4AGZE (though too small) and another for a 2L 1GGZE. Both are underbonnet, both can be hooked up to a switch to turn them on or off by disabling enabling the clutch.

I'm not sure exactly how I would install the s/charger on the 3B with the alternator/vacuum pump setup but here's some thought I had on setting it up:

S/charger can be switch operated as I said. I would change the pulley to give more boost at low rpm's. Not sure whether I would route the air from the SC through the turbo or use a Y pipe with solenoid to switch between the SC and turbo when the turbo is fully spooled.

Say if I used a larger turbo and it came on boost at 2,500 rpm I could then setup the SC to turn off at 2,500rpm and run on the turbo only. That way I could setup the SC with the different pully size to get 13-14psi by 2,500 then the turbo takes over with say over 14psi up to maybe 30 psi.

Cool. Are you pulling the engine apart to work on the air pathways? I know there is one fellow in Calgary running upwards of 18psi boost on his 3B, however he polished the precups. Not sure what else he did.

gb

 

[crushers]

how do you polish the precups? they are cracking all the time with the meat that they have from the factory, polishing would make that matter even worse, no? have you seen what a dropped precup does to a piston?
i'll pass, thanks
cheers

 

[Greg_B]

how do you polish the precups? they are cracking all the time with the meat that they have from the factory, polishing would make that matter even worse, no? have you seen what a dropped precup does to a piston?
i'll pass, thanks cheers

Well, an off the cuff answer is that opening the hole would reduce heat stress not only on the precup, but in the head too. I am sure there are other factors that would effect this, however that is a quick stab at it. Ask Mark what he did to the precups...I might be wrong with the specifics...I know he did something to them though.

gb

 

[R2HKS]

I really wanna see what a stock motor can do 1st. Pulling the head and doing a port/polish job would be next. But if I pull the head I may as well go the whole hog.

A full rebuild would be a ported/polished head, though in this area it would be fairly mild to ensure it doesn't end up all top end power. So more of a cleanup of casting marks, precup mods, exhaust side mirror polished. Then I'd look at changing the cam. Not sure on the diff between the 3b and 13BT but I'm sure they are probably different. Anyway a high lift is in order without too much overlap.

Pistons I would replace for forged pistons, lower CR maybe around a 13BT. then cryo'ed and teflon coated skirts. Rods would get the full treatment as well and cryo'ed. Crank also, balanced, knife edged and cryo'ed. Performance bearings.

That's what I would do if I was going to go the whole hog. But then I would probably say stuff it and get a 1HZ instead and still do those mods.

Call me mad but I don't really care if I blow my 3B up. Its old done lots of miles and I'm prepared to replace it if I had to. The curiosity is getting to me to what they can really do stock though.

 

[Greg_B]

Call me mad but I don't really care if I blow my 3B up. Its old done lots of miles and I'm prepared to replace it if I had to. The curiosity is getting to me to what they can really do stock though.

Cool...do it...report back.

gb

 

[crushers]

I really wanna see what a stock motor can do 1st. Pulling the head and doing a port/polish job would be next. But if I pull the head I may as well go the whole hog.

A full rebuild would be a ported/polished head, though in this area it would be fairly mild to ensure it doesn't end up all top end power. So more of a cleanup of casting marks, precup mods, exhaust side mirror polished. Then I'd look at changing the cam. Not sure on the diff between the 3b and 13BT but I'm sure they are probably different. Anyway a high lift is in order without too much overlap.

Pistons I would replace for forged pistons, lower CR maybe around a 13BT. then cryo'ed and teflon coated skirts. Rods would get the full treatment as well and cryo'ed. Crank also, balanced, knife edged and cryo'ed. Performance bearings.

That's what I would do if I was going to go the whole hog. But then I would probably say stuff it and get a 1HZ instead and still do those mods.

Call me mad but I don't really care if I blow my 3B up. Its old done lots of miles and I'm prepared to replace it if I had to. The curiosity is getting to me to what they can really do stock though.

just curious, why not do away with the precups altogether which would allow you to run extreme amounts of boost due to the lowering of compression ratios and just use liquid fire to start the thing in the mornings...
or am i way off base here?

 

[R2HKS]

just curious, why not do away with the precups altogether which would allow you to run extreme amounts of boost due to the lowering of compression ratios and just use liquid fire to start the thing in the mornings...
or am i way off base here?

Good question, tell me more. Can I do away with the precups? I'm still a diesel noob. How much would it lower compression? By liquid fire to start it what do you mean exactly? Will the precups really limit the head's flow potential? Diesel heads are still out there for me.

My experience is all in extreme high hp gasser engines pushed to their limits like minimum 600+ rwhp GTR's and Supra's. So I'm trying to apply some of that knowledge mod wise to diesels.

Suggestions are always welcomed.

Cheers

 

[crushers]

i am not sure how much the compression would drop, you could find someone with a cracked precup, measure and reduce the compression accordingly...

liquid fire or easy start or quick fire are sprayed into the intake runner to start a cold diesel engine when the glow plugs are not working esp at very cold temps. the old diesel tractors were started this way. with out the precups then the glow system will be useless...
cheers

 

[R2HKS]

I don't know if you have heard of a product here called "Start Ya Bastard" Basically its an aerosol can you spray into the combustion chamber/intake usually used on carby gassers to get them started. I wonder if I could hook something up like that and just replace the can or top up a resevoir, which could give a couple of squirts of basically alcohol I think it is to start it.

Hmm now you have me thinking about ditching the precups and making a different starting system.

 

[Gold Boy]

Nitrous... anyone???

GB

edit... http://www.nitrousexpress.com/Pages/NXd_stacker.htm

 

[Greg_B]

Nitrous... anyone???

GB

Hello! http://www.bankspower.com/tech_nitrousoxide.cfm

gb

 

[Gold Boy]

YES sounds like a plan!

GB

 

[Gold Boy]

When you think about it, adding nitrous oxide injection to a diesel is easier than adding it to a gas engine because you don’t have to mess with adding extra fuel. In fact, there’s no point in doing it unless you’re already in an overfueled condition.

Now don't that sound GOOD

GB

 

[brownbear]

They make a installed ether delivery system to start big engines. It uses some form of resivoir and delivery tubes.......that'll get ya started.

comments from Peter

Some comments...

Marc Ritchie polished the head on his 3B, and polished the pre-cup openings, although I don't believe he opened them much. With his polished 3B-T with over 15lbs boost pushing 38's through 4.11's, he had no power or performance problems chasing my powerstroke at 75mph from Calgary to California and back through the Nevada heat in June. His engine did get fairly hot... over 250F for extended driving periods, but no noticable effect on power or performance that would indicate a cracking head.

In North America, a port and polish often does involve a significant amount of material being removed from the head. However, the Toyota heads are much better engineered than your basic chevy head, and the need to remove material is almost zero, as the air passages are very straight and unrestricted compared to a stock 350 head. Therefore, I would (and have) limit head work to polishing the passages, and just port matching where the intake/exhause manifolds matchup. With this approach, there should be no concern of weakening the head in any way.




You can goad and taunt me all you like Wayne. I am imunne to your jeers. One day in the far and distant future, I will finish that project, if for no other reason than out of spite.




So, the term 'Richardson Comet Mark III' has a dubious origin. If I remember correctly, it actually flew out of my ass a few years ago while typing a message to the DTLC. It's endearing to see that it has actually stuck.

I first heard Rob Mullen make reference to this possibly mis-named combustion process. He was regailing me with a story of attending some institute where they had somehow installed camera's into a diesel engine cylendar to observe the flame propagation. As Rob told me, the instructor made a passing comment about some esoteric footage of some other process, whose name I've re-invented as Richardson Comet Mark III. Rob stayed after class, insisted that he had a truck that used that process, and convinced the instructor to give him a private viewing of the film.

Indeed, I do believe there is a name for the type of flame propgation used in the 3B engine design, but Richardson Comet Mark III may not actually be it, and the use of that term should certainly by in Quotes as Greg has done. If you use it in conversation, I recommend the use of the little rabbit ear air quotes to inflict the dubious origins of that term upon the listener.

Peter Straub

and more....

You don't really take the wastegate out. What you do is disconnect the air line from the pressure side of the compressor to the diaphram on the wastegate actuator. In this manner, the wastegate will be held closed by the strength of the diaphram itself. This mod is stupid easy to do. It's conceivable that at really high exhaust pressures that the gasses can force the wastegate open against the diaphram. I don't know for SURE whether this happens, but I suppose it's possible.

More extreme would include actually welding the gate shut, or even better, replacing the dump housing with a non-wastegated version to help streamline the airflow.

As to whether this idea is 'Good' or not, I would suggest that nothing in this game is 'Good' or Bad, positive or negative, 'safe or unsafe, or whatever moralistic term you want to apply. Nothing that we are talking about is going to get you to Heaven or keep you out of Hell. Running no wastegate means that 100% of otherwise lost energy from the exhaust is used to move air into the cylendar, your engine runs more efficiently with the increased compression ratio (more on this later), more fuel can be burned should you be so inclined, more stress is on the head bolts, head gasket, rings, engine bearings, etc. How our good Lord Ganesha feels about this is well beyond my expertise.

Peter Straub

and more....

You're never going to learn much about your engine doing things this way. I say the exact opposite. Start high... maximize the boost. Then, each time you re-install the engine, turn it back 2 or 3 psi. When frequency of engine rebuilds becomes tolerable, leave it set there.

In all seriousness, the design of the 12HT, 1HD-T is very similar to the Cummins, and they're running 15-20 PSI stock, and regularily upgrade to 30-60 lbs for big power. Our engines already have piston cooling, excellent quality rings, pinstons, rods, crank, and an absolutely gi-normous main bearing cap that makes those ever-so-covetted-stongest-you-can-get 4 bolt main caps look like marimba chimes. Even the head gaskets are a multi layer steer (MLS as it's called in the racer crowd, sometimes called a Cometic gasket) which is what the hot rodders are abandoning their o-ringed copper gaskets for. I wouldn't hesitate for a second (there's got to be a good turbo-lag pun in there somewhere) to run 15 to 20 lbs in a 12H-T or 1HD-T. THe ONLY thing I would ever think that needs improvement on a 12H-T/1HD-T to run higher boost might be replacing the head bolts with Studs. But that's it, and for 20lbs, it's not a concern. I would, however, run an intercooler if you're pushing more than 15 lbs for more than 30 seconds at a time (i.e. towing)

An indirect injected engine, however, is a different story. I would jack the boost up on one of those as high as I can too, but when I pull it's blown ass out of the truck, it would be replaced with a direct injection engine.

I really should get my ass in gear and build that super-turbo charged 1HZ and prove once and for all just how much boost you really squeeze through an indirect injected engine. If only I had an FJ80 carcas to install it in....

Peter Straub

and my favorite....

We should all be welding our waste gates shut and turning up the fuel. Marc and I have blocked the lines to or wastegates, and we're making as much as 17 lbs of boost. At least, I think so, my gauge only shows up to 15 lbs, and it spends a fair amount of time with the needle trying to jump off the face of the gauge.

The sluggish old 3B is actually rather fun with 17lbs of boost and the fuel turned all the way up to use it. Marc just put 5,000kms of highway travel with this much boost, and so far so good.

Peter Straub

all of these make me want to crank up the boost!

 

[lowenbrau]

Polishing precups may reduce stress risers and certainly would reduce the pumping losses. It also reduces the compression ratio which is a good thing. You can't lose the precups altogether because when the piston is at TDC most the fuel and air is in the precup when it pops at least a third of the explosion would be hammering against the top of the block. inefficient at least, likely pop the head gasket or bolts.

This idea is a good one and I have a plan to do it on my 13BT someday. If I was in AUS I'd be looking for a 15B for this project. Indirect injection is not a good candidate. All that compressed air has to go through the precup.

As far as mounting things up goes, I was planning to make a new intake manifold (basically two plates with four intake runners joining them) and mount an Easton t-90 in its side right on the side of the engine. Then my intercooler would actually live up it its misnomer and supply cool air right into the end of the blower. A constant 6 psi from the blower would make the of idle torque amazing and then add the 20 PSI from the turbo as it spools. Should kick butt.