Subaru Ascent v. LC200

[longranger]

There have been a ton of LC200 head-to-head and theoretical matchups in terms of capability/dimensions, etc., but one of the most interesting ones for the next few years seems to be the Subaru Ascent/Land Cruiser matchup.

Dimensionally, the Ascent seems to be close to the LC200. In performance, it’s got a slightly “weaker” engine than the LC200, but Subaru Boxers are known/proven powerhouses — they are just perfectly tuned to deliver power when you need it, how you need it.

So, here’s the question: with the obvious exception of nonexistent aftermarket support for a model that hasn’t hit dealer lots yet, how do you imagine the Subaru Ascent will influence the development of the next-gen Land Cruiser, if at all?

My gut says the Ascent will be a huge hit as a proper off-road rig, and there are enough Subie tinkerers who have done rather original lifts that we’ll see extremely capable Ascent-based rigs start challenging Land Cruisers for dominance and bragging rights.

When I was searching for my 200, I did a lot of research on the Ascent, going so far as to do a mock-up of a slightly lifted Ascent next to a stock LC for comparison. Don’t have photo on this computer, but will post when I get it. Slightly lifted, it looks much nicer than the Golden Retriever-driven release model we saw. Whether it was driven by Lassie for its world release or not, it’s a Subaru, with all the good connotations that brings. So it’s likely to rule mixed-off road terrains.

For my part, I earned a lifetime of respect for Subaru when I was issued one for work to get me through an Alaska winter. Amazing capability. The machine really takes the on-road/off-road binary and blurs it.

It remains to be seen whether the Ascent honors and continues this tradition, or whether it will become another Tribeca. With a possible intro of a hybrid and/or full-electric Ascent in its first five-seven years of production, it could turn out to be the rig that pushes Land Cruiser to its eventual electric future:
E-Cruisers

 

[Chocolate]

These vehicles don't compete. The Subaru is in a completely different price class and competes with vehicles like $35/40K Highlanders.

 

[Chocolate]

Crossover offroad

Scroll to 0:30

 

[longranger]

These vehicles don't compete. The Subaru is in a completely different price class and competes with vehicles like $35K Highlanders.

Respectfully disagree. It was a head-on competition for me when I was looking recently, and it boiled down to “tried-and-proven used-but-fresh 200” or “brand new but untested Subaru” —

I suspect the same question will be in the mind of many an off-road minded buyer when they are getting ready to commit. But a new Subie or a “broken in but new-ish” Land Cruiser for that $35-40K? So in that sense they are competitors — not in the new/new market, but in the overall motoring market.

Similar dynamic at play when it comes to the Highlander/Pilot v. Land Cruiser decision for many folks.
Highlander relative capability?

 

[NDizzle]

It's only a head on competition if you don't really know what you're comparing... That comes off as harsh on a second and third read, but I think there's a lot of truth to it. No offense.

 

[longranger]

Crossover offroad

Scroll to 0:30

A Subaru isn’t a “crossover,” isn’t “unibody,” isn’t SUV or AWD, it’s a ... Subaru.

Subarus are the motoring equivalent of diamond-dusted sandpaper on Teflon. Drive ‘em soft, and they just repel whatever junk terrain you throw at them. Grind ‘em hard, and they will chew away not only at the Teflon, but at the metal skillet and stove and kitchen underneath.

So while Subaru explicitly positioned its Ascent to be a Highlander/Pilot rival, the more adventure-minded Ascent drivers will doubtlessly position their rigs to places reserved for Land Cruisers. After they reach those places, here’s the key question this thread opens: can the Ascent go higher and further than even the Land Cruiser?

Please vote up above at the top of the thread.

 

[Reckless]

I don't think there is an even remote comparison. Body on Frame is a real truck, unibody is for cheap toys.

I would like to see Subaru get into this market segment with a real truck fit for offloading and baja racing. I always felt they didn't care to cater to the masses and made cars that they thought were fun to drive. They seem to go for more the lightweight vehicles whereas the Land Cruiser is more about heft. Since I'm used to german cars, I am partial to vehicles with heft and large motors.

 

[Chocolate]

A Subaru isn’t a “crossover,” isn’t “unibody,” isn’t SUV or AWD, it’s a ... Subaru.

Subarus are the motoring equivalent of diamond-dusted sandpaper on Teflon. Drive ‘em soft, and they just repel whatever junk terrain you throw at them. Grind ‘em hard, and they will chew away not only at the Teflon, but at the metal skillet and stove and kitchen underneath.

So while Subaru explicitly positioned its Ascent to be a Highlander/Pilot rival, the more adventure-minded Ascent drivers will doubtlessly position their rigs to places reserved for Land Cruisers. After they reach those places, here’s the key question this thread opens: can the Ascent go higher and further than even the Land Cruiser?

Please vote up above at the top of the thread.

Did you watch 0:30 in the video above?

 

[longranger]

It's only a head on competition if you don't really know what you're comparing... That comes off as harsh on a second and third read, but I think there's a lot of truth to it. No offense.

None of us know what we are comparing because none of us has sat in an Ascent, and all we’re going off of are dimensions/specs/journalistic accounts.

It’s a head on competition when it comes to where folks are going to be plunking down $35-40K. 4WD/AWD = check; 7-8 passenger = check; HARDCORE off-road capable = CHECK (and if you’re not prepared to click this check, stop reading, go find an Outback or a Forester and enjoy falling in love with motoring in an entirely new way); similar-ish cargo/towing capacity, check.

So yeah, these are going to be head on competitors way more than the Land Cruiser and Suburban are going to be competitors — even though they are theoretically “full-size SUVs” in the same class/category/etc.

I’m writing on this forum because I know the community thinks way outside the box, and sometimes outright against the box — and that’s envigorating. So rejecting a proposed PERFORMANCE matchup because these two vehicles are in different “price brackets” seems contrary to the overall mudder spirit. It’d be like rejecting the outcome of a drag race between a Tesla Model S and a suped-up Supra because one is electric and the other is gassing.

That’s what’s so liberating about motoring: in the end, it’s not about categories or brands or prices, but ultimate utility and capability. And that’s the core question here.

 

[longranger]

Did you watch 0:30 in the video above?

Yes, several times and I guess this just reflects different attitudes/approaches to off-roading.

For me, and I suspect the overwhelming majority of viewers, the most important thing in that video isn’t limited articulation at :30 but CONTINUOUS FORWARD MOTION at 1:37 in the video, gleefully rolling off the left side of the screen — with bumpers and fenders crumpled, but still going forward with a smile on one’s face and eyes on the next obstacle.

Another perspective on off-roading is that one get maximum fun when you have maximum armor and minimum damage to the underlying rig. But all that armor and suspension work is HEAVY (at the moment, though structural carbon is going to redefine this segment 100% in the next decade). So there’s the “law of diminishing returns” type logic at play. The more armor you put on, the less you want to mess up not just the underlying 70K rig you were trying to protect with the armor, but also the $5-30K of armor and gear you’ve installed. So in the end, you have a “hella capable” rig, but you may not exploit it fully because it’s hard spending two or three days power washing mud from brake calipers and front AND rear winches and lines.

Different strokes for different folks. Different needs for different conditions.

But everyone here does this type of mental calculus — cursing the blown out KO2 that was supposed to be “bulletpoof” and wondering if the sidewalk burst because the angle of attack was too high, or maybe because the overall rig was just too damn heavy.

And if in the middle of cursing your blown axle or tire or wheel or ... you haven’t stopped to ask whether the same feat could have been done by a “lesser equipped” Subaru, well, then, the whole point of this conversation is to think about that.

Ascents are coming. Because they’ll often be controlled by second-third generation Subaru owners, they will have really good wheel placement and overall rig control. This means they will greatly surpass “on-paper” expectations. I don’t own a Subaru nor have a financial stake in Subaru. I’m rooting for the Ascent because I want next-gen Land Cruiser designers to push the envelope much further than they have in the past. If they can see that the Ascent is outperforming the Land Cruiser across a broad range of performance metrics, and if that can serve as a stimulus for a far more capable LC300 — we should all be applauding that effort.

 

[longranger]

I don't think there is an even remote comparison. Body on Frame is a real truck, unibody is for cheap toys.

“Twin turbo is a real race engine; electric motors are impractical, a feel-good fetish for tree-hugging environmentalists.” —2005-2015 mainstream.

“Holy Chipotleyyy that’s fast.” — 2015-2025 & anyone who’s ever driven a Tesla.

“Dude, Tesla motors/axles in an LC would be a game changer.” — 2020-oriented Mudders who love motors and performance.

The point of this is to remind ourselves that mainstream perspectives can change quickly in the motoring world and manufacturing techniques are changing even faster still. A “real truck” is one that keeps running, getting you from point A to B despite whatever C throws at you.

We all love Toyota’s legendary reliability (drivetrain and all else). But what if the Ascent/Tesla/others introduce us to advances that push the operational envelope way above 200K, 300K, 500K miles, but like Tesla, into the semi-truck, 1m+ mile performance territory.

We don’t know what Subaru has cooked up, but based on its previous treats, whether you think of them as “cheap toys” or “champion rally racers” — they have a track record for reliability that’s as good as any, including Toyota’s.

So rejecting a comparison seems very defensive. Like a TT Supra racer refusing to consider the drag & 0-60 threat from a Tesla because, ya know, it’s “just electric.”

 

[krice118]

This is the Highlander vs 200 all over again.

You are comparing an $80k sticker SUV to a Crossover that will likely be around $32k - A lot of us buy Cruisers for the QUALITY of the interior and durability off road. Sit in any Subaru then sit in a 100 or 200 and you will instantly see a quality difference.

It has already been documented here that Toyota will continue to build the 200 on a Body on frame platform - there you go theu will not look at a subaru or any other car when building a new Land Cruiser bc simply there is not another car that competes. Rovers are the similar price but not reliable or durable like the 200.

Toyota does not care about buyers 5 years down the road when the used price is the same as a new Subaru. They will market / look at the people who will buy a BRAND NEW one.

 

[LALC]

This feels like a Subaru marketing employee.

 

[Markuson]

First, let me say that I bought my wife an Outback, and I had a blast in a WRX for a couple years.

I like Subarus.

But... I know which one I'd want if I had to drive through Afghanistan (done that), Africa (done that), South America (Done that), Papua New Guinea (done that), or Alaska (done that).

It wouldn't be the Subaru...and the decision would would take somewhere in the neighborhood of zero seconds.

It's just not in the same league.

On the other hand...if we were going to buy a new car for some strange reason for my wife again (to me, buying new is almost always money I'd rather lose elsewhere), I would take a very serious look at Subarus new offering...because she wishes her Outback was roomier.

 

[krice118]

@WorldCleanupDay
Furthermore: the current LC200 has a 32 degree approach angle and a 24 degree departure angle

This is from Subarus website........thats a huge difference on appraoch angle. Can we put this subject to bed?

Wheel travel is really nice bc i dont want to be tetoring on 2 wheels when I have a 2,000 ft drop 6 inches from my driver tire..... they dont have alot of elevation near memphis

 

[Markuson]

Personally, I'd love to see Subaru CRUSH the Highlander with this new vehicle.
They've been a small-market car company despite making excellent, unique vehicles with real merit and personality.
I'd love to see them successfully take on the likes of Toyota. But it isn't going to touch the 200...and surely is not intended to. Subaru is smarter than that.

PS. When it comes to 4x4 shopping, a *used* 200 Series basically crushes ANY *new* SUV purchase.

 

[longranger]

This feels like a Subaru marketing employee.

Nope, made the disclaimer in the post — no Subaru connection, and the happy owner of a Highlander and 200 series.

The tenor of the comments is very defensive, mudders. Markuson, respect for the global overland trips, truly, but you can’t dismiss a model that’s an entirely new build if it hasn’t been out yet. Just irrational.

KRice118 - the Ascent schematic is welcome, but leave Memphis be, homie. The MEM has clay mud in supermarket parking lots that will sap your rig like a black hole chomping away at the center of a galaxy. Come for a visit and drive any rig you dare along a nice tortilla flat stretch of Wolf River or the Mississippi. Five miles from downtown and your t-case will be begging for help, while snapping turtles are biting your heels and your brake lines. The MEM has roads that make rural Kosovo and Mongolia seem like Beverly Hills. Trust me, friends, you don’t want to play topography measuring contests with someone who’s demonstrated nothing but good will and has as many rough country driving miles as anyone on here.

I may be a new registrant but I’ve been in the wings for the past five years reading and learning — and a huge part of why I felt comfortable getting into the 200 was bc of the DEEP knowledge base here. So don’t be a limp Dick Cepek tire and spoil all the fun by throwing personal insults out. Engage with the ideas as you see fit, but don’t cast doubt on the motivations or sincerity of effort.

My personal build goal for the 200 series is to electrify it.
E-Cruisers Ruthless/brutal/scathing critiques are welcome, but only if they address specific technical aspects of the planned build. Saying something “clever” like “why don’t you just put a trampoline under a Model X or something?” shows more about the commenter’s creative limitations than about the limitations of the build. This is going to be a hell of a technical challenge, and I estimate it will take a good 3-5 years to actually pull off. So I’m going to be around and I’d appreciate your support and feedback, rather than just putting certain subjects to bed.

There WILL be innovations in the Ascent that we will ALL benefit from reverse engineering and learning about (esp if the rumors about planned hybrid/e-drive end up being substantiated down the road), and it does nobody any good to be dismissive about a brand new model from a legit off-road maker that none of us has driven yet. Just sayin’.

 

[Markuson]

So according to you, it's "not rational" to choose a proven beast of an overland vehicle...trusted in the most demanding, most harsh locations of the world...over an unreleased vehicle meant to compete with car-based SUVs?

I would suggest that objecting to that choice is irrational at best...and quite possibly ridiculous.

But beyond that... Don't ask a question if you don't want an answer, bud.

Here's a similarly-silly comparison where the Land Cruiser loses:

-Do you need a BRINKS armored truck to move 10 million $ in cash...or will a stock Land Cruiser do?
The answer is...both vehicles can carry 10 million bucks just fine.

But...if you get attacked by machine guns while toting the dough--only one of those choices would be helpful, and it wouldn't be the Land Cruiser.

Anyway... Carry on if you insist, but that'll be it for me.

 

[krice118]

@WorldCleanupDay

Lets focus on the E Cruiser.

 

[ac911az]

My brain hurts