Stock height. Spring sag. (1 Viewer)

[Lancruza]

I have a 97 USA 80. I'm trying to find out what the correct height is for a stock suspension. I'm also trying to determine if my springs are at the correct height or sagging from wear and time. I bought this 80 nine years ago and have not had any trouble with the suspension. She sits pretty close to level, which leads me to believe some suspension work may have been done in the past. I just put new tires on and would like a little more lift than what I currently have. Rather than randomly installing different springs to see if they would work, I'm trying to develop a baseline so I'll know what to try next and what to expect from the springs I choose. Also... when making measurements is it best to measure from center hub to the bottom of the flare, or the the bottom of the fender? Thanks for the help.

 

[77mustard40]

I think the general rule is 21" from the center of the wheel hub to the bottom of the fender, tons of info in the suspension thread in the sticky section here. BTW nice looking 80!

Compiled 80 series suspension component spec thread... shocks, coils & more.

80 series coil & shock specs A few years back 80 series suspension was fairly easy to figure out & purchase since there was only a few of options to chose from. Recently there has been a few suppliers stepping up to play in the USA 80 series market offering more options. Now with a plethora of...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[Lancruza]

I think the general rule is 21" from the center of the wheel hub to the bottom of the fender, tons of info in the suspension thread in the sticky section here. BTW nice looking 80!

Compiled 80 series suspension component spec thread... shocks, coils & more.

80 series coil & shock specs A few years back 80 series suspension was fairly easy to figure out & purchase since there was only a few of options to chose from. Recently there has been a few suppliers stepping up to play in the USA 80 series market offering more options. Now with a plethora of...

forum.ih8mud.com

THANKS!!! Thanks for pointing me to correct info.

 

[greentruck]

With coil springs, it's not just height. They also get "tired" with age and use so that their performance is impacted. You're not sure if they are OEM or aftermarket but it sounds like they've been around long enough that you'll be happy if you invest in new. IIRC the OEM stock coils are no longer available anyway. I was really happy with the OME stock height coils I put on first 80 but I think I heard that Dobinsions also offers them now.

 

[rherrco]

With coil springs, it's not just height. They also get "tired" with age and use so that their performance is impacted. You're not sure if they are OEM or aftermarket but it sounds like they've been around long enough that you'll be happy if you invest in new. IIRC the OEM stock coils are no longer available anyway. I was really happy with the OME stock height coils I put on first 80 but I think I heard that Dobinsions also offers them now.

I was in the spring business for 40 years. I have never been able to document a “tired” spring. If the spring has taken a set, or gotten shorter, then it will not hold the load at the original height. But load = spring rate x deflection. Age and number of cycles do not come into the equation. There also could be a deformation of mating hardware, which would make the spring look like it is sagging.

 

[Lancruza]

.

 

[Lancruza]

I was in the spring business for 40 years. I have never been able to document a “tired” spring. If the spring has taken a set, or gotten shorter, then it will not hold the load at the original height. But load = spring rate x deflection. Age and number of cycles do not come into the equation. There also could be a deformation of mating hardware, which would make the spring look like it is sagging.

So springs do not sag, or get more compressed over time. OK, then maybe I don't need new springs.

 

[rherrco]

So springs do not sag, or get more compressed over time. OK, then maybe I don't need new springs.

Best way to find out would be to measure them. But that doesn’t mean that extra weight due to additional equipment won’t make them too weak. You may need stiffer springs to compensate.

 

[greentruck]

I was in the spring business for 40 years. I have never been able to document a “tired” spring. If the spring has taken a set, or gotten shorter, then it will not hold the load at the original height. But load = spring rate x deflection. Age and number of cycles do not come into the equation. There also could be a deformation of mating hardware, which would make the spring look like it is sagging.

All I know is seat of the pants on this. Measured the ride height and if there was a difference, it wasn't enough for me to call it sagging. New stock height OME coils made a world off difference in the ride, but nothing in the ride height once they settled after a month or so. Now, I didn't drive the truck when it was new, but seriously doubt that Mr. T would sell a truck that was as lame as that I was driving circa 150,000 miles. There have been several threads here over the years where others have commented on essentially the same thing I did and that this was specific to coil springs.

 

[Mark W]

"tired spring" or "sagged spring". Same thing. It is not two different factors. Your spring comes from the factory with a certain spring rate and a certain height. With time and stress a spring of less than ideal metallurgy will lose some of it's resistence to deformation (spring rate). This could be called "tired" I guess. This loss of deformation resistance is also what causes "sag".

same same

Not two different considerations.

To the OP... why does the rig sitting level make you think that the springs are other than OEM configuration? Have you measured very very precisely? Have you considered every bit of weight that may or may not be in the rig as you do (including how much fuel is in the tank)? That OME bumper is not gonna alter the stance of the rig enough to notice just by eyeballing it BTW.

Mark...

 

[rherrco]

"tired spring" or "sagged spring". Same thing. It is not two different factors. Your spring comes from the factory with a certain spring rate and a certain height. With time and stress a spring of less than ideal metallurgy will lose some of it's resistence to deformation (spring rate). This could be called "tired" I guess. This loss of deformation resistance is also what causes "sag".

same same

Okay Mark. I am curious as to how you know that Modulus of Rigidity ( G ) changes over time.

Not two different considerations.

To the OP... why does the rig sitting level make you think that the springs are other than OEM configuration? Have you measured very very precisely? Have you considered every bit of weight that may or may not be in the rig as you do (including how much fuel is in the tank)? That OME bumper is not gonna alter the stance of the rig enough to notice just by eyeballing it BTW.

Mark...

 

[Lancruza]

"tired spring" or "sagged spring". Same thing. It is not two different factors. Your spring comes from the factory with a certain spring rate and a certain height. With time and stress a spring of less than ideal metallurgy will lose some of it's resistence to deformation (spring rate). This could be called "tired" I guess. This loss of deformation resistance is also what causes "sag".

same same

Not two different considerations.

To the OP... why does the rig sitting level make you think that the springs are other than OEM configuration? Have you measured very very precisely? Have you considered every bit of weight that may or may not be in the rig as you do (including how much fuel is in the tank)? That OME bumper is not gonna alter the stance of the rig enough to notice just by eyeballing it BTW.

Mark...

It was an assumption on my part that MAYBE some suspension work had been done. The assumption comes from reading much on here about peoples rigs being unlevel or "sagging". Since my LC doesn't do that, I was guessing that the PO had done some work before I bought it because she sits very level. My 80 has right at 300k miles.

I measured yesterday and my front height is 20.25" and my rear is 20.5" from the center of the spindle to the bottom of the fender. Nothing loaded in the cruiser and a 1/4 tank of gas. I would like to add a little height without redoing the entire suspension. An additional 1.5" would be fine. I was hoping to change the springs without changing the shocks.

I've also seen the spring spacers, and have considering adding a 30mm or 40mm spacer on all four springs instead of changing springs. Some people have done this and like the result. Some people say it's a bad move.

I'm not an aggressive wheeler. Mainly easy mountain trails and forestry roads so nothing too aggressive in the truck.

I'm learning as I go and I appreciate your input.

 

[CharlieS]

I'd call someone who has done a ton of 80 suspensions and pick their brain. Really, call them, with a telephone, and have a conversation. Tell them your goals, how you will use your vehicle, and your price range. Cruiser Outfitters comes to mind as a good place to start. Slee is another. Exit Offroad might be another. I've had good experiences with Filthy Motorsports, but they're not an 80 specialist like some of our long time 'mud community vendors.

 

[Mark W]

I measured yesterday and my front height is 20.25" and my rear is 20.5" from the center of the spindle to the bottom of the fender. Nothing loaded in the cruiser and a 1/4 tank of gas. I would like to add a little height without redoing the entire suspension. An additional 1.5" would be fine. I was hoping to change the springs without changing the shocks.

I've also seen the spring spacers, and have considering adding a 30mm or 40mm spacer on all four springs instead of changing springs. Some people have done this and like the result. Some people say it's a bad move.

I'm not an aggressive wheeler. Mainly easy mountain trails and forestry roads so nothing too aggressive in the truck.

I am not sure that you will find an aftermarket spring that lifts without going to about 2.5 or 3 inches higher.

I have used more OME than any other brand spring. Have also installed Slees and Dobinsons. AND I have used spacers, either on the front only to level rigs that are a little nose low due to bumper, winch and dual batteries or front and rear with a 30mm spacer to get just a little bit of lift to run a little bit larger tire under a rig that does not see real hardcore off road use.

Your shocks should really be matched to your suspension height. But if you are only adding "a little" and the off road use is "light" I have seen guys get away with stock length shocks until it is time to replace them anyway.

For non-aggressive use I see no downside to spacers. And it lets you keep the soft OEM ride too.

Mark...

 

[CharlieS]

Agree 100% with Mark W.

I've only had them for a couple of seasons now, but the base (non-reservoir) Icons are pretty decent. I snagged them on a black friday deal so they were very reasonable, and a well matched system. I found the various OME Nitrochargers a bit harsh on the other cruisers that I've run them on.

 

[CharlieS]

This may be obvious, but your front suspension needs to be specced with the extra weight out beyond the axles in mind. Things like your ARB steel bumper, and if you plan to put a winch in it, that too. That's why a phone call to an experienced 80 shop can be valuable. They've seen this scenario a lot over the last 30 years.

 

[greentruck]

Agree 100% with Mark W.

I've only had them for a couple of seasons now, but the base (non-reservoir) Icons are pretty decent. I snagged them on a black friday deal so they were very reasonable, and a well matched system. I found the various OME Nitrochargers a bit harsh on the other cruisers that I've run them on.

When I swapped in the OME 861/862 stock height coils on my 80, I replaced the shocks with the OEM Tokicos. They are a good value and provide adequate performance. However, with the added weight of the winch and 2nd battery, the Tokicos up front didn't provide enough dampening. I did add an ARB also, but the ARB really doesn't have enough additional weight over the removed stock bumper to be a big factor.

I ended up replacing the front Tokicos with a pair of OME Nitro Sports, leaving the Tokicos on the rear. That solved the inadequate dampening issuers and provided a pretty good ride despite the mismatch. CharlieS is right about the Nitro Sports being rather harsh , but other than that I was pretty happy with the combination.

The LX 450 I have now came with a mild (maybe 2") lift that works well, with the Stage 1 Icons all around. It is composed of Delta VS and Eimkeith components and an adjustabke rear Panhard of indeterminate origin, besides the Icons. The Icons are rebuildable, another point in their favor. The coils are OME 850/866 as far as I can tell. The rig also has a Bowfin Cruisers rack and it all fits through my 6'6" garage door and in virtually all parking decks if that's a consideration.

As for the sagging vs tired coil issue, whatever you call it, I think what it comes down to is that there isn't much sag that is obviously measureable before performance is degraded with the OEM coils. Your butt in seat will notice it before your tape measure will.

 

[Rifleman]

When i changed my 94's factory springs for some Old Man Emu factory ride height springs ( part numbers 861 front/862 rear) i took some measurements before, and after i installed them, so these measurements might be helpful to you.

New OME spring free height before install. Old Factory spring free height after removal
Driver front 19 1/4 Driver front 19 1/8
Driver rear 18 7/16 Driver rear 18 11/16
Pass front 18 13/16 Pass front 18 7/8
Pass rear 18 1/8 Pass rear 18 9/16

New OME spring height from C/L of hub to fender. Old factory spring height from C/L of hub to fender.

Driver front 20 3/4 Driver front 19 1/8
Driver rear 20 1/4 Driver rear 18 7/8
Pass front 20 3/4 Pass front 19 1/8
Pass rear 19 3/4 Pass rear 18 1/4

Below is a link you might also find helpful

OME 861/862 Stock Height Replacement Measurement

OME 861/862 Stock Height Replacement Measurements I installed Old Man Emu 861 (front) and 862 (rear) springs with N73 (front) and N74E (rear) shocks. This is the stock height replacement package. The data below might be useful for those considering this combination. Vehicle: 1997 FZJ...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[RubyCruiser]

I’m heavily researching this topic as well, although a bit different situation as I know its on original OEM springs and OEM replacement shocks (SACHS - unknown vintage). PO put on 305/70’s (33”) which are a bit wide and look a little stuffed.

I’m currently sitting at 20” inches center of hub to bottom lip of flare, so level but I suspect a bit saggy. I am 99% decided on going Dobinsons stock height replacement spring coils (C59-210/221V’s) over any other brand because they are planted but plush (or so I’ve read vs. OME which apparently need weight to feel good), and they are variable rate (vs. linear), so they can take a little weight for the few times I might load up the cruiser. I have no aftermarket components adding weight.

Also, according to @crikeymike, the Dobinsons are a bit higher than US spec OEM springs, as they were spec’d by Toyota for the Aussie market that way (UAE come even higher!). So, in the definitive suspension guide thread, I believe someone mentioned in the reviews that their stock weight rig went up to 23.5” rear and 21.5” front using the hub/flare measurement. Hard to say this would be everyone’s experience because there are so many variables.

I’ll see how that looks/rides with these springs, new OEM Tokico shocks ($60/per vs. $$$ alternatives that are enticing but I don’t need currently). Then plan is to eventually (possibly?) squeeze 295/75’s (33.4”) under if I think they can work. Under 2” lift with 285/295s has been mentioned by many as an ideal look and setup if you are not looking to go big on max suspension travel.

Mine is an also garage queen and weekend driver. Your use-case may dictate something different but this is what I am thinking is the optimal set up for me/my rig configuration, and without getting into lift geometry.

Welcome any comments or before/after pics if you’ve done the same setup. Thanks!

 

[mudgudgeon]

I’m heavily researching this topic as well, although a bit different situation as I know its on original OEM springs and OEM replacement shocks (SACHS - unknown vintage). PO put on 305/70’s (33”) which are a bit wide and look a little stuffed.

I’m currently sitting at 20” inches center of hub to bottom lip of flare, so level but I suspect a bit saggy. I am 99% decided on going Dobinsons stock height replacement spring coils (C59-210/221V’s) over any other brand because they are planted but plush (or so I’ve read vs. OME which apparently need weight to feel good), and they are variable rate (vs. linear), so they can take a little weight for the few times I might load up the cruiser. I have no aftermarket components adding weight.

Also, according to @crikeymike, the Dobinsons are a bit higher than US spec OEM springs, as they were spec’d by Toyota for the Aussie market that way (UAE come even higher!). So, in the definitive suspension guide thread, I believe someone mentioned in the reviews that their stock weight rig went up to 23.5” rear and 21.5” front using the hub/flare measurement. Hard to say this would be everyone’s experience because there are so many variables.

I’ll see how that looks/rides with these springs, new OEM Tokico shocks ($60/per vs. $$$ alternatives that are enticing but I don’t need currently). Then plan is to eventually (possibly?) squeeze 295/75’s (33.4”) under if I think they can work. Under 2” lift with 285/295s has been mentioned by many as an ideal look and setup if you are not looking to go big on max suspension travel.

Mine is an also garage queen and weekend driver. Your use-case may dictate something different but this is what I am thinking is the optimal set up for me/my rig configuration, and without getting into lift geometry.

Welcome any comments or before/after pics if you’ve done the same setup. Thanks!

Stock original springs, 305/70r16 (33"s)

FWIW, these pics ar a couple of hours drive into rough forestry roads.

If you have a garage queen, or only intend to explore forestry roads, there's no reason why you can't stick to 33" tire height.

295/70 would be slightly less that 33.
305/70 is right in 33
285/75 is around 33

Lots of options in 33s that will work with stock springs.

Only "mods" in the pic above is trimmed mudflaps, and on this trip I removed the bent factory sidesteps when I got set up in camp