Solid Axle vs IFS thoughts...

[Crux]

After replacing the passenger side CV Axle this weekend on my LC (and replacing both CVs on my 4Runner a couple of months ago), I starting thinking about the value of a solid axle.

Would a SAS be worth it just from the maintenance perspective? Not having to replace leaking or exploded CV axles, failed steering racks, being able to run a bigger lift, bigger tires?

From a monetary perspective it probably doesn't make sense. If a SAS costs around $15k, then you could do a lot of maintenance for that much money.

But, I'd have a lot more down time of the truck (either in the shop = $$$, or in my garage = time!)


I've never owned a solid front axle vehicle.
Are they more durable up front?
What kind of maintenance is required? Rebuild every 60k miles?
How would a swapped 100 series handle on long road trips (75+ mph) vs the IFS?


Of course my wife tells me to just keep dreaming

 

[BManning`]

You're going to get a lot of different takes on this one...

The disadvantages of IFS are limited wheel travel & less durability (due to more moving parts) than a solid axle...

...however...

independent suspensions are generally thought to ride nicer, track better (less), and allow for more responsive rack & pinion steering. Some guys act as if independent suspension has no place off-road; I'd take note that 6-figure desert racing trucks are IFS.

For me, it all comes down to your plans-- if you want to build a true rock crawler, then yeah, you probably need to swap in a solid axle. For all other types of wheeling except for big rocks, your IFS is just fine.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

From a monetary perspective it probably doesn't make sense.

From a monetary perspective, it doesn't make sense.

I've never owned a solid front axle vehicle.

They are OK. It's a mature technology and perfectly safe.

Are they more durable up front?

Definitely more durable and robust up front. Articulates better too.

What kind of maintenance is required? Rebuild every 60k miles?

Wheel bearing repack every 30k, Knuckle rebuild every 60k. Probably more overall maintenance than your current set up, but the maintenance is easier to perform.

How would a swapped 100 series handle on long road trips (75+ mph) vs the IFS?

Don't know, my guess is that the IFS is better on the highway. A lot would depend on the quality of the swap.


My vote: leave it alone. 100s are pretty nice just like they are.

 

[1loudLX]

Hey at least you're close to the shop that would do it.

 

[FullyLitLED]

I would do an SAS swap in an instant, I jus don't know how and its expensive ahah

 

[dclee]

I'll echo others here and say that it doesn't make sense on a 100 Series. Not only is it super expensive, but not enough of them have been done to know what the proper suspension and steering geometry, handling, etc. should be. I know Christo has done one, but that was an R&D exercise and cost more than most people's 100s are probably worth. Maybe not in your case since you have an `04, but you'd also run the risk of losing your ABS, Brake Assist, EBD, VSC, and TRAC in the conversion, which is not worth the loss of those safety and handling features.

If you want two solid axles for a "hard-core" wheeler, go buy an `85 4Runner or mini-truck. Or even (gasp) a Jeep! It will be way more capable and cheaper in the long run. If you also desire the cargo capabilities and tank-like build of a Land Cruiser wagon, you can't go wrong with a 60 or 80 Series as well. You could probably find a cherry condition 80 with factory lockers for less then you'd spend SAS'ing your 100.

My $0.02,

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Knuckles and axle seals leak too.

 

[spressomon]

I'll echo others here and say that it doesn't make sense on a 100 Series. Not only is it super expensive, but not enough of them have been done to know what the proper suspension and steering geometry, handling, etc. should be. I know Christo has done one, but that was an R&D exercise and cost more than most people's 100s are probably worth. Maybe not in your case since you have an `04, but you'd also run the risk of losing your ABS, Brake Assist, EBD, VSC, and TRAC in the conversion, which is not worth the loss of those safety and handling features.

If you want two solid axles for a "hard-core" wheeler, go buy an `85 4Runner or mini-truck. Or even (gasp) a Jeep! It will be way more capable and cheaper in the long run. If you also desire the cargo capabilities and tank-like build of a Land Cruiser wagon, you can't go wrong with a 60 or 80 Series as well. You could probably find a cherry condition 80 with factory lockers for less then you'd spend SAS'ing your 100.

My $0.02,

Ditto. So that makes $.04 between us . It would be easier and arguably better to drop a 2UZ-FE into an 80 than SAS a 100.

 

[dclee]

Ditto. So that makes $.04 between us . It would be easier and arguably better to drop a 2UZ-FE into an 80 than SAS a 100.

Oooh, now that would be a cool project!

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Oooh, now that would be a cool project!

There is one in the 80 section with a 5 speed auto out of a LC.

 

[spressomon]

There is one in the 80 section with a 5 speed auto out of a LC.

Interesting. I was talking with hoser about what would be required to drop the A750F 5-speed into my '99. I've e-mailed Orto at Wholesale Automatic Transmissions (in AU) about whether or not a tranny ECU exists and/or how to flash the current ECU (or if its necessary) to get it to talk to the A750F.

BTW: WAT's A343F and A750F valve body mods, which are relatively easy to do, sound very very interesting. This mod results in crisper shifting and less or no gear hunting. Maybe the equivalent of a B&M shift kit back in my street rod days.

Wholesale Automatic Transmissions

I'd do this in a heartbeat if the trannies are the same dimension; utilizes the same t-case; is relatively easy from the ECU perspective.

 

[rusty_tlc]

......



Don't know, my guess is that the IFS is better on the highway. A lot would depend on the quality of the swap.


My vote: leave it alone. 100s are pretty nice just like they are.

If it was a coil over linked suspension I would guess the ride could be comparable. But it would take a lot of tuning and time to get it there.

Knuckles and axle seals leak too.

I don't know what the official shop times are but I would guess that you could re-build both sides of a FJ40/60/80 in the same time it takes to do one side of a 100. (I've done both.)
Cost is also a factor, the parts for a complete knuckle re-build (with bearings) on a solid Toyota axle cost less than one side of a 100.


All of that said I'd leave the 100 alone and get a 4Runner or mini truck for a rock rig. You could build a sweet truck for a lot less than the SAS on a 100. Hell you even could build a sweet FJ40 for less.



Just for the sake of argument what kind of axle would you guys put up front if you did a SAS?
A custom built 80 series?
Dana?
........?

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

I find myself spending a lot of my offroad miles on rough wash board type roads and its going to be hard to get me back into a solid front axle unless its a dedicated trail rig. I have learned to enjoy the comfort of the smooth running at highspeeds with IFS.

 

[Crux]

I thought about going for a nice 80, but the wife doesn't want me to buy a 12 year old vehicle that already has a bunch of issues waiting crop up due to care, age, etc.

Part of the reason we bought the 100 in the first place was to be able to take a lot of people and gear on 4x4 camping trips - so a 40 or 4Runner or (jeep!) defeats that purpose. That and the fact that the LC is only 5 years old.

I'll see how long the current CV axle lasts after moderate 4wheeling every other weekend.
I'd really hate to be rebuilding 4 to 8 axles a year. Those are precious weekends that I'd rather be having fun than wrenching in the garage.


Is there no way to preserve ABS, Brake Assist, EBD, VSC, TRAC, etc after the conversion?

 

[dclee]

I'll see how long the current CV axle lasts after moderate 4wheeling every other weekend.
I'd really hate to be rebuilding 4 to 8 axles a year. Those are precious weekends that I'd rather be having fun than wrenching in the garage.

It's a Land Cruiser. I don't think this will be a concern. Maybe extend the axle breathers if you plan on lots of water crossings, but other than that, drive it and enjoy it!

 

[spressomon]

I thought about going for a nice 80, but the wife doesn't want me to buy a 12 year old vehicle that already has a bunch of issues waiting crop up due to care, age, etc.

Part of the reason we bought the 100 in the first place was to be able to take a lot of people and gear on 4x4 camping trips - so a 40 or 4Runner or (jeep!) defeats that purpose. That and the fact that the LC is only 5 years old.

I'll see how long the current CV axle lasts after moderate 4wheeling every other weekend.
I'd really hate to be rebuilding 4 to 8 axles a year. Those are precious weekends that I'd rather be having fun than wrenching in the garage.


Is there no way to preserve ABS, Brake Assist, EBD, VSC, TRAC, etc after the conversion?

The key really is to keep the front lift at 2.75" or less. Its the severe CV angles that play heck with leakage. I'm pretty hard on my '99 having racked up over 90,000 miles in the 4-1/2 years I've had it including thousands upon thousands of miles of off-road trails without any real issue.

I have replaced the CV axles on both sides. I rebuilt/rebooted each and now use them as spares. Once you do one you can easily, with the right tools, remove and replace a complete CV axle assembly in 90-minutes including jack time (home garage). Then take your time as available to reboot/rebuild it for your next spare.

I'm now looking to acquire rear axle assemblies to be able to do the same. The semi-float style rear axle assemblies apart of a 100 hardly give problems but when they do (bearings eventually fail from multiple water crossings...can't imagine why ) they can't be serviced in the field but swapping is a relatively quick and easy job there too.

 

[pesimsmd]

Slee is doing an another SAS on a 00 UZJ100. It should be ready in March 2010. Not as radical as the Blueberry, but more like an expedition style rig, with 36 tires, 5-6 inches of lift.

 

[Letsgomoreplaces]

ifs vs. solid

I'm with spressoman on this one. 150k total miles, 90k+ miles at lifted height, 70k on 35" tires, about 40k miles with the UCA's and additional downtravel. Right after doing lift I had some cv boot seepage, but did new clamp. replaced the boots when I did the UCA's. The CV's are all original. I would say that doing the CV boots is on par with doing knuckles on an 80. 100k on cv boots isnt too bad, considering a 100k 80 would likely need knuckles overhauled. That said I like the IFS setup I have now. I also like the 80 solid axle setup. The 100 definately looks more subtle with 2.5" lift and 35's than an 80 with 4" and 35s. Subtle enough for my wife to use as a daily driver. As for the sealed rear bearings, 150k on mine now. I prefer the full floaters to, but simply for the cool factor. Still I wouldnt let full floater rear bearings go 150k without repack or replace.

The key really is to keep the front lift at 2.75" or less. Its the severe CV angles that play heck with leakage. I'm pretty hard on my '99 having racked up over 90,000 miles in the 4-1/2 years I've had it including thousands upon thousands of miles of off-road trails without any real issue.

I have replaced the CV axles on both sides. I rebuilt/rebooted each and now use them as spares. Once you do one you can easily, with the right tools, remove and replace a complete CV axle assembly in 90-minutes including jack time (home garage). Then take your time as available to reboot/rebuild it for your next spare.

I'm now looking to acquire rear axle assemblies to be able to do the same. The semi-float style rear axle assemblies apart of a 100 hardly give problems but when they do (bearings eventually fail from multiple water crossings...can't imagine why ) they can't be serviced in the field but swapping is a relatively quick and easy job there too.

 

[Crux]

Slee is doing an another SAS on a 00 UZJ100. It should be ready in March 2010. Not as radical as the Blueberry, but more like an expedition style rig, with 36 tires, 5-6 inches of lift.

Is he keeping the rear axle or replacing that too?

 

[pesimsmd]

Is he keeping the rear axle or replacing that too?

No change to the rear axle, front axle will be Diamond axle 9.5 inch, with 105 hubs. His plan is to set up the front and rear axles the same keeping them 5 lugs. His thinking is that its easier to get junk 100 rear axle if its damaged, rather then making custom axles. As it stands the only exotic part will be the 105 hubs, and the plan is to get one extra so you wont have to look it, if something happens.