Shock Rebuilding / Vehicle Downtime

[BrownDog09]

I have not seen this exact topic discussed here, at least in the 200 forum, so here we go. Apologies if this has been discussed before...

I am really trying to justify to myself why I need a set of King 2.5s and down the rabbit hole of research I have gone. Everything about the shocks appeal to me, the design, serviceability, precise construction, the list goes on. Do I need them - absolutely not. Do I need them... well yeah, of course I do.

So, here is what is holding me back and I am likely answering my question. But for reasons of discourse I wanted to put this out as a topic of discussion and see what those like me have experienced.

So, here the question - my LC is my primary mode of transport, and I plan on doing the installation of the shocks myself. So all good there, will take me a couple days to figure it out the first time around. What are you all doing when it is time rebuild high-end coilovers? Are you buying the rebuild kit, and rebuilding at home (figuring out how to recharge with nitrogen) and reinstallating? Or, sending them back to a guy like Ben at Filthy Motorsports to have them rebuilt, and wait for 2-3 weeks for more while your truck hangs out on jackstands?

I have put 30K miles on my Land Cruiser in what feels like a short amount of time, so if we are considering a rebuild every 50k miles or so, that's a significant reason to stick with the Tokico stockers and find something else to obsess over.

Anyways, please let me know what you think.

 

[linuxgod]

I don't (yet) have Kings so I'm following to see what folks say. Part of the reason I bought the Tough Dog setup was the maintenance required for Kings. Also Kings were 2x the cost. That said, I've heard that 50k is for heavy offroad use and if you're largely on pavement you may very well get double that.

 

[HSTexan]

FWIW, when I spoke to Ben at Filthy he said for most people's use 50K is when you need to start considering the rebuild for whenever is convenient and 100K is when you need to stop what you're doing and pull them off ASAP. My set of Kings is supposed to show up in the new few weeks--my plan for rebuild is once I hit 50K try to have them rebuilt while I'm on a vacation. I have access to a third car which helps tremendously too, but carpool/share with my wife is a sufficient plan for a short period of time as a last resort.

 

[BrownDog09]

Perhaps people that daily their vehicle with rebuildable coilovers are talking the ‘cross that bridge’ approach and no one has had a 200 with Kings long enough to know just how long that length of rope is.

If can get 100k miles out of a set with extreme work expeditions and tactical kid drop offs and pickups I would not hesitate.

I did see one company that is targeting the Raptor crowd with rebuilt shocks that you send your ‘core’ swap into and they immediately return a rebuilt set to you. So, it must be somewhat of a thing if cottage businesses are popping up. Or you have 10 grand laying around for a back up set to plug and play.

 

[777Gage]

This is one of the main reasons I went with the Bilstein set-up. Install it and forget it. And when something needs to be replaced, I just order a new one, remove and install in a short amount of time. I have another vehicle to drive, but I don't want my 200 sitting waiting for anything if possible.

I understand this lift isn't the first choice for most, but it absolutely fits my objective and after 20+ years of Bilstein use on various vehicles, I've yet to have anything fail. (I know they do, just haven't with me yet)

And I can spend the savings on other things for the 200

 

[turbo8]

I rebuild my own shocks, as long as you have all the correct parts and tools, you can rebuild a shock in a couple hours. I usually will rebuild a set in an afternoon and the other set the next afternoon. Your first time rebuilding will be messy.

 

[BrownDog09]

I rebuild my own shocks, as long as you have all the correct parts and tools, you can rebuild a shock in a couple hours. I usually will rebuild a set in an afternoon and the other set the next afternoon. Your first time rebuilding will be messy.

How do you recharge the shocks with nitrogen? Did you buy a bottle?

 

[mcgaskins]

I am really trying to justify to myself why I need a set of King 2.5s and down the rabbit hole of research I have gone. Everything about the shocks appeal to me, the design, serviceability, precise construction, the list goes on. Do I need them - absolutely not. Do I need them... well yeah, of course I do.

I would start with why you think you need Kings in terms of your real world use

Design: After they're installed, do you really think you're going to look at them often enough to care about the design?
Serviceability: May be a negative since shocks like this generally require more maintenance. Suspension that is more serviceable generally means shorter life.
Precise construction: While this is nice, I think most major brands like OME also have excellent construction and are very reliable.

High end shocks are generally more work to get dialed in (spring rates, valving, testing/tuning) than a solid off the shelf solution. If you're intending to wheel very hard, go dune bashing and jumping, etc., high end shocks are worth it, but if you're not going be taking the vehicle to the absolute limit, I think it makes sense to stick with something simpler, less expensive, less maintenance, less tuning, and easier to find. So unless you're doing stuff like @ToyotaIsLife below (some of my fav pics ever posted here), I think Kings may be overkill, but if you do send it like him, please take pics/videos!

 

[BrownDog09]

I would start with why you think you need Kings in terms of your real world use

Design: After they're installed, do you really think you're going to look at them often enough to care about the design?
Serviceability: May be a negative since shocks like this generally require more maintenance. Suspension that is more serviceable generally means shorter life.
Precise construction: While this is nice, I think most major brands like OME also have excellent construction and are very reliable.

High end shocks are generally more work to get dialed in (spring rates, valving, testing/tuning) than a solid off the shelf solution. If you're intending to wheel very hard, go dune bashing and jumping, etc., high end shocks are worth it, but if you're not going be taking the vehicle to the absolute limit, I think it makes sense to stick with something simpler, less expensive, less maintenance, less tuning, and easier to find. So unless you're doing stuff like @ToyotaIsLife below (some of my fav pics ever posted here), I think Kings may be overkill, but if you do send it like him, please take pics/videos!

Oh I do not remotely need them. But I need them.

I was just chuckling to myself thinking - if dudes with similar interests are telling me I don’t need them, I can only imagine explaining to my wife why I just have to have 5k in shocks…

 

[TheGrrrrr]

Oh I do not remotely need them. But I need them.

I was just chuckling to myself thinking - if dudes with similar interests are telling me I don’t need them, I can only imagine explaining to my wife why I just have to have 5k in shocks…

If you don't mind spending $5k on a set that seem to be strictly for the purposes of 'having Kings' then I would think you can afford a set of $1k OME Nitrochargers as backups when the time comes, or you know, the stock ones you are taking off for free. Those Kings won't take you anywhere the Nitros won't. The Nitro's haven't limited me one bit and they would be great backups if I ever move up to BP-51s that will eventually need rebuilt.

 

[Moby]

I rebuild my own shocks as well. I put ~60k on my Radflos and they needed nothing other than topping up of Nitrogen. I did go into my Radflos once to revalve. My Bilstein 7100 went 20-30k before the truck was destroyed. I went into these >6 times as I learned how to tune a shock.

Rebuilding is not hard. You need a few specialty tools (spanner, etc) and a small Nitrogen tank from a welding supplier and regulator with schraeder no loss chuck. This is little money compared to the shocks. It will take you 2-3x the amount of time to remove than to actually rebuild. The question is what parts are worn? A rebuild kit is good to have on hand. Technically a bore gauge to measure runout would be nice, but at <100k unless you are really pushing the shock, seems unlikely to hit this level of wear.

I don't believe that non rebuildable shocks last longer. All shocks slowly degrade. It's not like there is magic in the non rebuildable that will make it run 50k more. One you can rebuild the other you cannot. I have no data to back that up other than replacing a number of blown out non rebuildable shocks. However what Radflo told me when I asked them how I would know when I needed to rebuild, they told me the shock would feel worn out. So yeah, just like a non rebuildable feels like when it has finished its lifespan.

 

[bloc]

My nitrogen cylinder, regulator, and gauge cost about $180 all-in. I went ahead and bought it because I had to add some fluid to one of the reservoirs after letting too much leak out getting the hose orientation correct.

Note: consider getting your nitrogen rig prior to install so you can relieve pressure when you adjust the hoses. Yes they can be turned while barely tight, but it is a very delicate operation. Adding lost fluid after the fact is a lot more work.

I’ll need to buy a shock body holder for my vice, and have someone with a better spring compressor remove the coils from the fronts for me, but otherwise I can do all the service with stuff I already have based on Ben’s rebuild video.

All this knowing I’m likely to get years and years before I actually need to do it.

Plus.. you’re taking off your old suspension. Keep that, and bolt it on for the rebuild period if you need daily driving. You can ball-park the alignment in the driveway well enough for a couple weeks.. I’ve done it.

 

[BrownDog09]

Moby / bloc,

Thank you both. Exactly what I was looking for. So, it is reasonable to pull these off on a weekend, and with proper tools and a tank, rebuild and reinstall in a 2-3 day period. Just what I was hoping. I enjoy maintennce and rebuidling them looks really something I could get into.

Final question - Doing this on jack stands - yeah or nay?

 

[borfoo3]

Putting it in another way: you'll only deal with buying suspension ONCE.... explaining it to the wife ONCE... then live with the results EVERY DAY

Although not the 200 series, I went from stock --> bilstein 6112/5160 --> KING 2.5 Ex Travel on the 4Runner and they have absolutely changed the truck.. now ~5 years, ~40k on them and nowhere near worn out although the 4Runner is not my daily driver anymore. That said, I'll probably be doing a ~7 year service intervals, and for that I'd rather give it a good shop than buy tools and learn to use them properly once every 7 years..

If I had the non-AHC LC200 I'd definitely go KINGs again

 

[unclemat]

Putting it in another way: you'll only deal with buying suspension ONCE.... explaining it to the wife ONCE... then live with the results EVERY DAY

Although not the 200 series, I went from stock --> bilstein 6112/5160 --> KING 2.5 Ex Travel on the 4Runner and they have absolutely changed the truck.. now ~5 years, ~40k on them and nowhere near worn out although the 4Runner is not my daily driver anymore. That said, I'll probably be doing a ~7 year service intervals, and for that I'd rather give it a good shop than buy tools and learn to use them properly once every 7 years..

If I had the non-AHC LC200 I'd definitely go KINGs again

Would you expand on your experience and differences between the Billies and Kings? I heard varying opinions, like that Kings are "soft and wallowy", while Billies are "sporty".

I have Kings 2.5 on the shelf I bought from Filthy last year waiting for install but I sort of question my purchase (definitely in the want rather than need department). I have two 200s, and the "normal" one was going to remain stock suspension wise, but in the end I decided to upgrade it, too, so I ordered Bilsteins. Eventually I will be able to compare them back to back. I do have Bilsteins (OEM TRD) on my Taco though and I like them.

An offroad shop in CO (Metric Offroad) that I happened to randomly visit on my recent trip was vehement in saying that all boutique suspension setups are maybe good for racing but a mistake for a normal offroad/overland enthusiast to bother with them due to the cost, complexity and limited service life. They were big fans of OME Nitrochargers. One mileage may vary, but it was an interesting opinion nonetheless.

 

[Moby]

You can't compare things like this. The Bilstein have fixed valving (OEM will spec the valving if they are OEM standard equipment). They are what they are. You buy and hope they meet your needs. If they don't you buy another set of something else. Kings/Radflow/Fox/Sway-a-Way can all be tuned to exactly what you prefer/need for your uses. And if you can do this work yourself, which is less complex than a rebuild, you can tune until you really have exactly what you want.

With 60K+ miles on my Radflos with no drop in performance suggesting that a rebuild was needed I see no reason why a rebuildable shock will, by default, wear more quickly than a non-rebuildable. If you want your shocks to perform great over 150k miles you are either going to rebuild or replace shops. Take your pick.

I won't get started on my OME experience. But I won't buy again.

Do the work on jackstands. And @bloc is correct, get spring compressors. I bought the beefiest independent compressors I could find and went real slow. A shop will have a big contraption that compresses more easily. While I'm always a bit nervous using compressors

 

[Moby]

@unclemat One thing that may factor in here is that lots of people now buy "race" shocks because they look cool. When I'm done building my truck people could look at it and say "poser" or "mall cruiser". Very mild lift and very expensive shocks (I have a long email out to Filthy about exactly what I want - example: internal/external bypases). But for me I do need it for the following reasons:

1. I really like to dial in suspensions. Truck or car. Bypasses will help me do that without tearing down the shock to revalve every time. I will still need to revalve, but bypasses will help in the process and provide a bottom out zone, which helps with a short travel suspension.
2. I often spend hours on dirt roads where I want to drive 2-3x what a stock truck can do (so ~20 versus 5-10mph). I'm pre-running gravel and mountain bike race courses and I'm trying to get from difficult section to difficult section as quick as I can.

For #2 with a low lift (~1" front/stock rear for my HE with taller rear OEM springs) I really need #1. I want low for stability and then I want to be able to push hard within the bounds of that low lift. To do that I have found that I really need to dial the tuning (#1).

Most people buying these types of shocks are not this nuanced about their needs. They buy because they look cool. I don't have a problem with that but I can see how the shop could easily have given you the perspective that a fixed shock, if targeted at a specific vehicle, is easier to deal with than rebuildable. It's just the wear factor I don't completely buy.

 

[unclemat]

@Moby Ack on the adjustability, although at the end of the day what matters how well the suspension works for the intended purpose.

My experience with adjustable coilovers is on a car, but fairly limited. Since I did not track as much as I thought I would I went back to a simpler street setup and been happy with that. I guess I will see how Kings work out for me.

 

[TeCKis300]

Everything has a trade. I've learned long ago that race parts are optimal for racing, with potentially significant trades for daily use. And vice versa. It's not so much a question of quality, as it is priorities and design trades for those priorities.

It is unlikely a race shock will come near the long term durability of a street oriented shock for a number of reasons.

Shock shaft - these are key to long term durability. Most every street oriented shock will have these in an inverted orientation, keeping the hardened shock shaft high and protected. They'll use an accordion boot to keep dirt/rocks/contaminants away from the shaft and seals. This is the highest potential wear item in a shock, and a key item to manage for long term durability against oil leaks and loss of pressurization. Many race shocks run the shaft exposed in the lower position because the monotube shock bodies need to be at the top for packaging reasons like reservoirs. If using these as intended off-road, pitting, damage, and wear to the shaft and wiper seals, will ultimately cause these to prematurely require a rebuild well before an OEM style shock.

Pressurization and seals - race shocks are no surprise, higher performance. To do that, they are setup at higher base pressures to manage potential cavitation and aeration. This inherently puts more load on all the seals, aka seal drag, ultimately trading off long term durability.

Neither of the above is much of a concern for a shock meant to be regularly rebuilt as they are used in racing. For steet, that's a different story.

If truly used in hard running environments and off-road, a race part will last longer in that use case where a street oriented part may not perform or outright fail prematurely. That's because race parts are designed for the load and heat, without overheating to the point that it causes the shock to no longer dampen because of aeration, or worse, outright failure.

There are a number of hybrid shock designs that may walk a better line between OEM vs racing, perhaps better for enthusiast use.

That said, tires are one of the best "suspension" upgrades for enthusiast and overlanding use. Airing down, these become an integral part of the suspension, isolating and absorbing much of the medium to high frequency bumps, allowing the shocks to keep cooler and focus on the big stuff.

 

[Moby]

@Moby Ack on the adjustability, although at the end of the day what matters how well the suspension works for the intended purpose.

My experience with adjustable coilovers is on a car, but fairly limited. Since I did not track as much as I thought I would I went back to a simpler street setup and been happy with that. I guess I will see how Kings work out for me.

Yes, I put Bilstein PSS9s on my Audi A4 project. It was too close to Race for me, even with the compression adjusters on softest. But since they were non rebuildable I was stuck. This was the last time I will buy a suspension that I can't pull apart and revalve. Boy, did they corner like on rails though. Of course the upgraded anti-sway bar made a huge difference here as well.

@TeCKis300 Your comments are spot on, I just haven't seen that wear concern in my actual experience. Doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with your points though if that makes sense.