Shock Rebuilding / Vehicle Downtime

[HSTexan]

Reading back through a few replies it sparked a few more thoughts I thought I'd contribute.

1. Regarding service interval; at an average of 10-12K miles/year the first service wouldn't even need to be considered for 4-5 years. Likely being done somewhere closer to 7-8 years. That is a LONG time--much longer than when people imagine hearing 50K miles on a vehicle that commonly runs to 250K or more.

2. If they don't fit your needs/wants then they don't fit your needs/wants, but the potential application is much broader than just being geared toward dune racing. Ben mentioned to me he's got a set of King's on the shelf waiting for his wife to greenlight them for her daily driver because he likes they way a performance/race shock rides. He said he wants to set her 4Runner up at stock height, just with the King's; it won't be running trails, it won't be doing high speed desert runs--it will be a daily driver and grocery getter. That's about as basic/plain jane of a setup as they'll come. If you are comfortable with servicing rather than replacing--if you are comfortable with the cost--if you are comfortable with taking some time to learn the nuances of how to set them up to optimize your specific needs and application then there is nothing wrong with King's or any other high performance race shock. You just have to understand what comes with them.

3. I don't doubt most shops recommend basic setups to customers--they see so many people and vehicles come through and the reality is a large number are looking for aesthetics rather than function or they are at least not as invested in finding the "perfect" solution. I'm sure just about every shop in existence has had to deal with customers who didn't research properly and understand what they were buying and came back angry. It's easier to just sell them something that is set and forget.

4. I know enough to get by, but not enough to contribute in any other meaningful way other than to forward one what was told to me by those more knowledgeable. I cannot speak highly enough about Ben and Filthy so if you are considering King's at all I would recommend talking over your concerns with him. He is one of the largest if not the largest volume dealers of King's and will have an answer to pretty much any question you can throw his way.

 

[Moby]

I cannot speak highly enough about Ben and Filthy so if you are considering King's at all I would recommend talking over your concerns with him. He is one of the largest if not the largest volume dealers of King's and will have an answer to pretty much any question you can throw his way.

You should see the enormous email with my uses, vehicle build spec, preferences, etc. that I sent to Ben yesterday I know it will take 5-6 months to get what I want, but I'm willing to wait.

 

[HSTexan]

You should see the enormous email with my uses, vehicle build spec, preferences, etc. that I sent to Ben yesterday I know it will take 5-6 months to get what I want, but I'm willing to wait.

Oh I did the same thing--my first e-mail to him was so long I felt bad, but he told me he appreciated being so thorough. Over a couple days I spent probably 2.5hrs on the phone with him getting everything figured out.

 

[BrownDog09]

Reading back through a few replies it sparked a few more thoughts I thought I'd contribute.

1. Regarding service interval; at an average of 10-12K miles/year the first service wouldn't even need to be considered for 4-5 years. Likely being done somewhere closer to 7-8 years. That is a LONG time--much longer than when people imagine hearing 50K miles on a vehicle that commonly runs to 250K or more.

2. If they don't fit your needs/wants then they don't fit your needs/wants, but the potential application is much broader than just being geared toward dune racing. Ben mentioned to me he's got a set of King's on the shelf waiting for his wife to greenlight them for her daily driver because he likes they way a performance/race shock rides. He said he wants to set her 4Runner up at stock height, just with the King's; it won't be running trails, it won't be doing high speed desert runs--it will be a daily driver and grocery getter. That's about as basic/plain jane of a setup as they'll come. If you are comfortable with servicing rather than replacing--if you are comfortable with the cost--if you are comfortable with taking some time to learn the nuances of how to set them up to optimize your specific needs and application then there is nothing wrong with King's or any other high performance race shock. You just have to understand what comes with them.

3. I don't doubt most shops recommend basic setups to customers--they see so many people and vehicles come through and the reality is a large number are looking for aesthetics rather than function or they are at least not as invested in finding the "perfect" solution. I'm sure just about every shop in existence has had to deal with customers who didn't research properly and understand what they were buying and came back angry. It's easier to just sell them something that is set and forget.

4. I know enough to get by, but not enough to contribute in any other meaningful way other than to forward one what was told to me by those more knowledgeable. I cannot speak highly enough about Ben and Filthy so if you are considering King's at all I would recommend talking over your concerns with him. He is one of the largest if not the largest volume dealers of King's and will have an answer to pretty much any question you can throw his way.

It is these threads that make me very appreciative of the group here. Great information. I am going to take the plunge soon, and then I need to get smart on the installation procedures.

I have read several times that Kings on the 200s provide very little lift even at the highest setting. Has anyone found this to be true?

 

[turbo8]

It is these threads that make me very appreciative of the group here. Great information. I am going to take the plunge soon, and then I need to get smart on the installation procedures.

I have read several times that Kings on the 200s provide very little lift even at the highest setting. Has anyone found this to be true?

Depends on the springs you spec.

 

[HSTexan]

I have read several times that Kings on the 200s provide very little lift even at the highest setting. Has anyone found this to be true?

Mine are supposed to be coming setup for 2.5" lift on the front (for my weight)

 

[TexAZ]

I went with Icons that had 35k miles on them (Craigslist find) and added another 40K before sending them in for rebuild. i had the reservoirs added during the rebuild.
i installed my stock shocks with spacers to drive the 2 weeks the Icons were getting rebuilt. this was back when Icon was still doing rebuilds. in the 6 years I've had my truck i've added 130K miles, i pulled the coilovers off for rebuild again at 60K on them, and sent the rear shocks in as well they had close to 100K but were overdue for rebuild. Luckily i live 2 miles from SDHQ and had them rebuilt there. Took three months to get them back. i bought a totally new set to run while i waited.
the orginals are in the classified section now.

I spent a little more on shocks to have the ability to adjust for a comfortable ride around town with 2 kids in the back seat, and still be able to hot foot across the desert, or climb comfortably in Moab. Rebuildable shocks are a little more work, but the amount of time I spend in my truck, i want a comfortable ride. Living in AZ, i have access to varied trails that run from high speed sandy washes to rocky mountain trails. i love having the ability to stiffen/soften the ride with the twist of a knob.

 

[bloc]

One thing not mentioned here when comparing king/radflo/fox to billy/arb is piston size. For a given damping characteristic the 2.5s have vastly more piston surface area and fluid movement and this reduces the stresses within the shock substantially. This is a huge factor in teckis point about stock suspension just not being capable of doing what race suspension does.

I’m somewhere in the “want” category for my kings, but in that “want” bracket is “don’t want to worry about performance, whatever dumb s*** I decide to do.” I don’t often desert run, but was really glad I had my kings the random time I did a year ago.


Lift also depends on your curb weight. I’m near stock weight and with the standard 600s in front gained over 2”. I feel going down to 500s would be too soft, as that’s the stock rate. Ben tried to source a 550 but no joy. On a ramp and trail I have trouble hitting the bump stop on the stuffed front corner.. but I haven’t been able to test this with the front of the vehicle downhill when more weight would be on that corner.

I’m loving them otherwise though..

Plus so far my rear upper bushings are holding up, which has been a concern posted here. Anyone ordering kings should get an extra set just in case.. and make sure they are the ones with flanges.. king seems to send some flat ones when asked.

 

[fos373]

Oh I do not remotely need them. But I need them.

I was just chuckling to myself thinking - if dudes with similar interests are telling me I don’t need them, I can only imagine explaining to my wife why I just have to have 5k in shocks…

I have kings. you need them. Call Ben

 

[linuxgod]

I have kings. you need them. Call Ben

Next LCDC we need an unofficial “suspension testing ground” where we can hop into each other’s vehicles and feel the difference between setups.

I for one like my Tough Dog setup but if Kings are able to provide the same control and compliance I get in the 15-20 mph range on trails with my shocks over a much larger range they’d 100% be worth the $. I think they will, but I can’t tell until I drop the $ on them, which is hard to do.

 

[TexAZ]

I suggested the same thing at LCDC3 or 4, didn't get any takers. There are so many variables that go into suspension set up and subsequent handling.

Shocks, shock settings (if an option) spring rates, long travel components, wheel size, tire size, tire construction....

While probably not truly scientific, it would be fun to have a seat of the pants comparison.

 

[fos373]

I'm all for it, or if you in/or near town, I think all of us would be happy to share a test ride

B

 

[linuxgod]

I'm all for it, or if you in/or near town, I think all of us would be happy to share a test ride

B

I’m in Chicago normally but once a year I’m wherever the LCDC is

 

[linuxgod]

I suggested the same thing at LCDC3 or 4, didn't get any takers. There are so many variables that go into suspension set up and subsequent handling.

Shocks, shock settings (if an option) spring rates, long travel components, wheel size, tire size, tire construction....

While probably not truly scientific, it would be fun to have a seat of the pants comparison.

Ah yeah I remember someone suggesting that in Breckenridge. I know there are lots of variables but it could still be useful, especially for how many people run similar wheel/tire combinations.

My only experience with Kings was driving my buddy’s fairly new F150 Raptor (too) fast down washboard and rutted roads. Totally different truck with the much longer wheelbase, but is on 35s and it really did soak up the bumps like a Cadillac. If Kings on a cruiser are even remotely similar they’d rock

 

[bloc]

Ah yeah I remember someone suggesting that in Breckenridge. I know there are lots of variables but it could still be useful, especially for how many people run similar wheel/tire combinations.

My only experience with Kings was driving my buddy’s fairly new F150 Raptor (too) fast down washboard and rutted roads. Totally different truck with the much longer wheelbase, but is on 35s and it really did soak up the bumps like a Cadillac. If Kings on a cruiser are even remotely similar they’d rock

Some quick digging shows a stock raptor with 13” of front wheel travel, to our 9” stock. Kings add a couple inches of droop in front.. but that can be done to a raptor too.

I can’t say mine handles like a raptor.. but it does change the high speed characteristics and especially “control” of suspension travel at speed. but then it is FAR better at tight trails than one too, in large part due to that shorter wheel base that makes it worse in the high speed stuff.

 

[Moby]

King, Fox, Sway-a-way, Radflo are all in the same class. I've run Fox on my endurance race MTBs that I set up very much like my trucks (short travel, plush early and very progressive) and have always been a little meh about them. But pros/cons, I'm sure that Fox is better in some areas. I just moved from a Rocksox SID Ultimate to an MRP Ribbon SL on my current race bike. The SID was a dream for weight but just doesn't have the tuning options. At least that I found.

I've had good luck on trucks with Bilstein and Radflo. The problem with Bilstein was that I waited about 2 months every time I wanted a new shim for a valving change. That sucked. I said I'd never buy Bilstein again and then I bought PSS9s for my Audi. Now I'll really never buy them again.

Point being, the key here is finding a tuner that knows the specific truck. I suspect that Kings are so popular here because Ben knows the 200 so well and knows how to make Kings work for them. This is exactly why I went with Radflos for my GX and why I'm going Kings for my 200.

 

[borfoo3]

Would you expand on your experience and differences between the Billies and Kings? I heard varying opinions, like that Kings are "soft and wallowy", while Billies are "sporty".

I have Kings 2.5 on the shelf I bought from Filthy last year waiting for install but I sort of question my purchase (definitely in the want rather than need department). I have two 200s, and the "normal" one was going to remain stock suspension wise, but in the end I decided to upgrade it, too, so I ordered Bilsteins. Eventually I will be able to compare them back to back. I do have Bilsteins (OEM TRD) on my Taco though and I like them.

An offroad shop in CO (Metric Offroad) that I happened to randomly visit on my recent trip was vehement in saying that all boutique suspension setups are maybe good for racing but a mistake for a normal offroad/overland enthusiast to bother with them due to the cost, complexity and limited service life. They were big fans of OME Nitrochargers. One mileage may vary, but it was an interesting opinion nonetheless.

Want to say a few points on this. First, any suspension that is "soft and wallowy" is either worn out, or not properly set up. Stock suspension is usually the 'softest/ mushiest' setup as most aftermarket suspension kits typically increase spring rate and/or has a 'stiffer' shock setup to improve handling. Any good aftermarket setup (except for extreme setups like removing sway bars or super long-travel baja style trucks) should feel more controlled and planted when driving vs stock.

Speaking to my experience, PROS for Bilstein: I loved how 'simple' the Bilstein setup was, doesn't need other mods or mess with any settings as it was a direct swap. Has noticeable improvement over stock at a decent price. Has rubber bushings which don't squeak and can accommodate stock and lifted spring setups. CONS: Downside is they were designed for stock-ish weights and are not future-proof, as adding steel bumpers or extra weight cannot be adjusted for.

KING offers several spring options (on coilovers) and valving options to match your rig weight or driving preference. Setup is important here, as the wrong setup won't drive as good as it should. PROS: Adjustable shocks (a must-have option) are great for varying loads (geared up for trips) or dialing in the ride for your needs. Damping (and the resulting drive experience) is impressively smooth on the bumps and gives the impression of driving on a cloud. CONS: High purchase price, metal bushings (can be squeaky sometimes) and may require more mods to maximize gains (i.e. UCA for the extended travel option)

 

[Moby]

For reference @eurosonic just posted a good pic of a setup to charge shocks. Mine looks almost the same except mine has a stiff braided steel hose that is a pain. I'll upgrade at some point. My Ni tank is about the same size as in this picture, but you can easily get them smaller. I've charged up probably ~30 shocks learning to tune and haven't even dented my bottle. ~13 years later.

Stellarbuilt 200 on 37s

Will be removing couple of inches from Dissent bumper to match the fender line

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[Climbingnut]

I’m gonna enter into this convo, though my experience with the higher end race shocks is only through observation. I have BP-51’s on my 200, and I use it almost weekly off-road, traveling 60-80 kph while towing a caravan, and also doing slower crawling stuff. I can attest to someone’s comments about the inverted shafts on off-road designed shocks getting banged up. One of my shock guards had the retaining clips fall out. Given my location in the world, getting new ones was a mission and the shock shaft took a hammering. Shock is now leaking and either needs rebuilding or replacing. I know the BP-51’s can be rebuilt by a trained installer/company, but has anyone tried rebuilding them at home like the Kings/Fox/etc?

 

[linuxgod]

I’m gonna enter into this convo, though my experience with the higher end race shocks is only through observation. I have BP-51’s on my 200, and I use it almost weekly off-road, traveling 60-80 kph while towing a caravan, and also doing slower crawling stuff. I can attest to someone’s comments about the inverted shafts on off-road designed shocks getting banged up. One of my shock guards had the retaining clips fall out. Given my location in the world, getting new ones was a mission and the shock shaft took a hammering. Shock is now leaking and either needs rebuilding or replacing. I know the BP-51’s can be rebuilt by a trained installer/company, but has anyone tried rebuilding them at home like the Kings/Fox/etc?

I don't see why you couldn't rebuild them yourself, unless OME will only sell the rebuild kits to someone they've certified.

How many miles on your BP-51s? I know your usage is not typical for US drivers, but I'd bet it's a reasonable approximation of the lower end of their service life.