Considering the Safari Turbo for a '96 Cruiser what are some opinions? Most people run seem to go with the Super Charger but why?? Anyone running the Safari Turbo?
Safari Turbo Opinions
- Thread starter snowcruiser
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sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
The turbo system will beat the socks of the SC any day. We have installed a couple now and if I had my choice that is what I would go for, except you don't have the choice. They are no longer available in the US (and for that matter Oz), and in talking with Safari directly, we would have to purchase 25 units before they will make new kits.
Ah Ha,
Someone finally agrees with me....
Turbo VS Super. Someone that knows too!! 
You can still get them, I just double checked. Go to http://www.man-a-fre.com/parts_accessories/turbo_charger.htm This is where I purchased mine from. They were great help as well, they sent me pics of a turbo setup on stands which really helped. I have them posted on my website http://www.yomama.net/Safari%20Turbo/safari_turbo.htm along with install instructions. Yes they are more difficult to install, then an S/C, but they are awesome...
Yomama
Someone finally agrees with me....
Turbo VS Super. Someone that knows too!! You can still get them, I just double checked. Go to http://www.man-a-fre.com/parts_accessories/turbo_charger.htm This is where I purchased mine from. They were great help as well, they sent me pics of a turbo setup on stands which really helped. I have them posted on my website http://www.yomama.net/Safari%20Turbo/safari_turbo.htm along with install instructions. Yes they are more difficult to install, then an S/C, but they are awesome...
Yomama
MAXIMUM SPEED Stock Safari Turbo
Overdrive Off 105 mph 118 mph
Overdrive On 102 mph 130 mph
I don't think my tires could handle this speed
I hope MAF does better on this kit than other kits.
kurt
Overdrive Off 105 mph 118 mph
Overdrive On 102 mph 130 mph
I don't think my tires could handle this speed
I hope MAF does better on this kit than other kits.
kurt
sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
[quote author=yomama link=board=2;threadid=4222;start=0#msg31461 date=1060608452]
Ah Ha,
Someone finally agrees with me.... Turbo VS Super. Someone that knows too!!
You can still get them, I just double checked. Go to http://www.man-a-fre.com/parts_accessories/turbo_charger.htm This is where I purchased mine from. They were great help as well, they sent me pics of a turbo setup on stands which really helped. I have them posted on my website http://www.yomama.net/Safari%20Turbo/safari_turbo.htm along with install instructions. Yes they are more difficult to install, then an S/C, but they are awesome...
Yomama
[/quote]
Uhm, then they must have fed me a line of bs. I bought the last stock the MAF had. I still have one on the shelf, but that has been paid for, just waiting for the owner to come back for the install.
Ah Ha,
Someone finally agrees with me....
Turbo VS Super. Someone that knows too!! You can still get them, I just double checked. Go to http://www.man-a-fre.com/parts_accessories/turbo_charger.htm This is where I purchased mine from. They were great help as well, they sent me pics of a turbo setup on stands which really helped. I have them posted on my website http://www.yomama.net/Safari%20Turbo/safari_turbo.htm along with install instructions. Yes they are more difficult to install, then an S/C, but they are awesome...
Yomama
[/quote]
Uhm, then they must have fed me a line of bs. I bought the last stock the MAF had. I still have one on the shelf, but that has been paid for, just waiting for the owner to come back for the install.
sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
[quote author=landtoy80 I hope MAF does better on this kit than other kits.
kurt
The kit is from Safari and all the components are high quality. I believe the reason it never took off was that it had to be installed by MAF (at least in the beginning). Safari was not prepared to sell a kit that you could just orders, have delievered by UPS and then install.
Personally I think they missed the boat. I met with Peter Luxon way back when in CO Springs when this was being introduced. They were pretty adamant about doing it their way.
They insisted on dyno tuning and the Unichip. Yes, that might be the ideal setup, however we have installed the kit without the Unichip and dyno tuning and it runs just fine. With the chip you can tune the system for optimal power and fuel economy.
kurt
The kit is from Safari and all the components are high quality. I believe the reason it never took off was that it had to be installed by MAF (at least in the beginning). Safari was not prepared to sell a kit that you could just orders, have delievered by UPS and then install.
Personally I think they missed the boat. I met with Peter Luxon way back when in CO Springs when this was being introduced. They were pretty adamant about doing it their way.
They insisted on dyno tuning and the Unichip. Yes, that might be the ideal setup, however we have installed the kit without the Unichip and dyno tuning and it runs just fine. With the chip you can tune the system for optimal power and fuel economy.
Interesting, Maybe MAF is out of them, I just went to their website. I would have thought that they could have got more. You are correct in that they wanted to do the install or have someone that was certified do it, since there was no one around Minnesota they just sold it out right to me. I did the install myself with the help of my dad. It took us all weekend, but then again we spent almost a day trying to find the right tap/drill bit size for the oil return (metric or pipe fine thread) ended up getting a different connector. Mine also came with the chip which just solders into like five connections on the ECU, remarkable performance. I would recommend staying with the stock muffler and cats from my experience, seems like she had a little more ooph before I went to the 3" cat and muffler. Still gets up and goes though....
Landtoy80, it isn't so much the top end, but how quick she will get you up there.
Yomama
Landtoy80, it isn't so much the top end, but how quick she will get you up there.
Yomama
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So Christo, what would be the unit price on the order for 25 turbos? IMO the turbo is the better option compared to the supercharger, but when MAF told me "$4 grand, installed" I became a little less interested.. so how many deposits would you want before you placed an order for 25 of those bad boys? -tim
Yomama, you people on the wrong side of the river have higher speed limits then us Cheese Heads But we have more lakes 8)
kurt
But we have more lakes 8)kurt
I wouldn't be surprised if MAF would take your order and then try to get one from Safari. I wonder if they would tell you they couldn't get one then, or wait until they got them in stock, which would be never or until they got 25 orders.
Not a direct knock on MAF, but so many companies do business this way anymore.
Not a direct knock on MAF, but so many companies do business this way anymore.
[quote author=landtoy80 link=board=2;threadid=4222;start=0#msg31473 date=1060612845]
Yomama, you people on the wrong side of the river have higher speed limits then us Cheese Heads But we have more lakes 8)
kurt
[/quote]
More lakes ???, More then 10,000 ??? :-X
Yomama
Yomama, you people on the wrong side of the river have higher speed limits then us Cheese Heads
But we have more lakes 8)kurt
[/quote]
More lakes ???, More then 10,000 ??? :-X
Yomama
Number of Wisconsin Lakes, 15,057
kurt
kurt
[quote author=landtoy80 link=board=2;threadid=4222;start=0#msg31485 date=1060616353]
Number of Wisconsin Lakes, 15,057
kurt
[/quote]
Somebody is counting pools 8) I found this http://www.circlewisconsin.com/facts.cfm
Interesting, Minnesota is always referred to as "Land of 10,000 Lakes" It is actually more http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/faq/mnfacts/water.html still less then you guys, unless yours are under 10+ acres. Interesting.
Yomama
Number of Wisconsin Lakes, 15,057
kurt
[/quote]
Somebody is counting pools 8) I found this http://www.circlewisconsin.com/facts.cfm
Interesting, Minnesota is always referred to as "Land of 10,000 Lakes" It is actually more http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/faq/mnfacts/water.html still less then you guys, unless yours are under 10+ acres. Interesting.
Yomama
Photoman,
I believe (I'll know when I get my boost gauge from Junk) that the turbo is only boosting 6psi, over that and you run into problems. You do not really need more boost then that since it has an intercooler. At 6psi the turbo has more power then the S/C at 8psi. Something like that.
Yomama
I believe (I'll know when I get my boost gauge from Junk) that the turbo is only boosting 6psi, over that and you run into problems. You do not really need more boost then that since it has an intercooler. At 6psi the turbo has more power then the S/C at 8psi. Something like that.
Yomama
I'm still against the turbo.
sc here or better yet, stock
sc here or better yet, stock
Yomama,
Thanks! Please post the numbers when you get Mike's gauge in. If I remember correctly there is a loss of boost pressure with an intercooler because of the plumbing. If your seeing 6 psi at the intake the turbo probably puts out something like 8 or more. The HP gain of course comes from reduced air temps and can be significant. It looks from your pictures that the Safari turbo uses an air to air intercooler, so air must always be flowing through the intercooler to benefit. I was always worried about the location of the intercooler and putting more hot air through the radiator. It was the last thing I wanted to do.
FWIW, this may not be the right place for this but here is a picture and a little info on SC pulleys. The stock SC pulley is 3.2 inches. The smallest you can go (with modifications) to increase boost is 2.6 inches and keep the belt in the stock location. This is pretty shaky as there is not much "meat" left on the pulley as you can see in the picture. From there down to 2 inches the pulley can be flipped over and used but the belt tensioner and the crank pulley must be shimmed out approx. one half inch to keep the SC belt alignment. I have a custom rad so this would work for me but am unsure how it would affect a stock rad. The modifications I made on the lathe was to remove enough material to clear the SC nosepiece and to get the offset correct. Every .2 inch smaller pulley size results in approx. 1 psi boost increase and about 11 HP. I have modded a couple of 3 inch pulleys, a 2.8, and a 2.6 inch pulley but have not run any of them myself and will not be running for a good while yet. These smaller sizes will probably require nozzle mods, fuel pressure and volume mods, maybe a rising rate regulator, etc. etc. and may blow the top off the thing. :'(
Bill
Thanks! Please post the numbers when you get Mike's gauge in. If I remember correctly there is a loss of boost pressure with an intercooler because of the plumbing. If your seeing 6 psi at the intake the turbo probably puts out something like 8 or more. The HP gain of course comes from reduced air temps and can be significant. It looks from your pictures that the Safari turbo uses an air to air intercooler, so air must always be flowing through the intercooler to benefit. I was always worried about the location of the intercooler and putting more hot air through the radiator. It was the last thing I wanted to do.
FWIW, this may not be the right place for this but here is a picture and a little info on SC pulleys. The stock SC pulley is 3.2 inches. The smallest you can go (with modifications) to increase boost is 2.6 inches and keep the belt in the stock location. This is pretty shaky as there is not much "meat" left on the pulley as you can see in the picture. From there down to 2 inches the pulley can be flipped over and used but the belt tensioner and the crank pulley must be shimmed out approx. one half inch to keep the SC belt alignment. I have a custom rad so this would work for me but am unsure how it would affect a stock rad. The modifications I made on the lathe was to remove enough material to clear the SC nosepiece and to get the offset correct. Every .2 inch smaller pulley size results in approx. 1 psi boost increase and about 11 HP. I have modded a couple of 3 inch pulleys, a 2.8, and a 2.6 inch pulley but have not run any of them myself and will not be running for a good while yet. These smaller sizes will probably require nozzle mods, fuel pressure and volume mods, maybe a rising rate regulator, etc. etc. and may blow the top off the thing. :'(
Bill
I have a 3.00 inch pulley that I got from an undisclosed source. It increased the boost on mine almost 2lbs under heavy load. Even with water injection in 3rd gear towing a big load I got almost 8 lbs and the motor was not happy. I stopped at a convienent place and swapped back to the 3.2 inch stocker, much happier motor under heavy load. It runs great with the smaller pulley when it's not towing. The extra load and boost developed when the vehicle is loaded takes the boost too high for my tastes.
[quote author=yomama link=board=2;threadid=4222;start=0#msg31524 date=1060631672]
Photoman,
I believe (I'll know when I get my boost gauge from Junk) that the turbo is only boosting 6psi, over that and you run into problems. You do not really need more boost then that since it has an intercooler. At 6psi the turbo has more power then the S/C at 8psi. Something like that.
Yomama
[/quote]
All boost is not created equal. To agree with Yomoma, likely the turbo will produce more power at 6psi than the SC will at 8psi. This has to do much more with the efficiency of the two FI units and parasitic losses than anything else. The turbo is much more efficient than the SC is. The turbo uses waste engery (exhaust) to produce its boost pressure. It's not *free* energy, but pretty efficient not the less. The SC uses a belt off the motor to spin it to produce its boost pressure. It takes hp away from the motor to produce the boost (ie parasitic losses). The faster you spin the blower to produce more boost pressure, the more hp it takes to spin the blower. On top of that, roots type blowers are the most ineffient types of superchargers built (they have a lot of very redeeming qualities, but efficiency isn't one of them).
I've seen tests on smaller roots blowers that it takes >25hp to spin the blower to produce 6psi. A similar sized turbo would probably use less than 10hp to produce the same 6psi........thus, total power produced from the turbo motor will be higher than the SC motor at the same boost level.
My 1/2 cent,
Mike
Photoman,
I believe (I'll know when I get my boost gauge from Junk) that the turbo is only boosting 6psi, over that and you run into problems. You do not really need more boost then that since it has an intercooler. At 6psi the turbo has more power then the S/C at 8psi. Something like that.
Yomama
[/quote]
All boost is not created equal. To agree with Yomoma, likely the turbo will produce more power at 6psi than the SC will at 8psi. This has to do much more with the efficiency of the two FI units and parasitic losses than anything else. The turbo is much more efficient than the SC is. The turbo uses waste engery (exhaust) to produce its boost pressure. It's not *free* energy, but pretty efficient not the less. The SC uses a belt off the motor to spin it to produce its boost pressure. It takes hp away from the motor to produce the boost (ie parasitic losses). The faster you spin the blower to produce more boost pressure, the more hp it takes to spin the blower. On top of that, roots type blowers are the most ineffient types of superchargers built (they have a lot of very redeeming qualities, but efficiency isn't one of them).
I've seen tests on smaller roots blowers that it takes >25hp to spin the blower to produce 6psi. A similar sized turbo would probably use less than 10hp to produce the same 6psi........thus, total power produced from the turbo motor will be higher than the SC motor at the same boost level.
My 1/2 cent,
Mike
Mike-
I've yet to see any turbo system that REALLY uses any considerable/measurable amounts of HP from a motor. I will agree w/ you on the issues regarding parasitic losses of a S/C vs. a turbo. However, most turbos serve no real " problem " in regards to power losses in the parasitic area. They may add backpressure to the system, but as long as the exhaust path is efficient enough i.e. 3" or larger, the turbo is fine. S/C have long been popular w/ the drag racing crowd for many reasons, including reliability and simplicity. This is also usually the big block/small block crowd, who will sacrifice 25-50hp for a 200-300 hp gain. That's why you see most imports w/ turbos, although some silly people like those Jackson Racing s/c's. I'm still hesistant to consider a turbo for my 80, on the grounds of underhood heat and complexity of the system. Most OEM/Aftermarket wastegates were not designed w/ the extremes of 4Wheeling in mind. I doubt many cast and/or SS manifolds would appreciate being heated up to 1200 degree plus, then dunked in icy river water or mud... you don't see that kind of stuff often on a race track. The Safari system may be different, and I understand that they use a fairly beefy manifold. But I still think that the intricacies of a turbo system and the delicacies are too large to deny. Wastegate springs, blow-off valve springs, boost controllers, they are all factors and pieces that must be bulletproof for a turbo system to be 100%. I just don't feel like any aftermarket people make pieces like that yet. Some may argue the point of Pikes Peak racers and Baja and such, and I'll quickly point out that those vehicles are SPECIALLY designed and engineered for such extremes. Some of the manifolds for turbos on Pikes Peak cars cost in excess of $8k. That's JUST the manifold. The wastegates are fluid-damped to prevent g-shock loading of the mechanisms and so-on and so-forth. Anybody w/ a Safari turbo system that really wheels it hard? I mean Rubicon trail, Moab Rim, Tellico hard? For more than a year? I'm curious to know about the long term durability of the turbo system, say 2-5 years... Anybody? If someone can show me evidence of that system holding up to that kind of use over the years, then I'll look hard at designing one of my own... I've got the access to the piping, wastegates, blow-off valves, I/C's engine management and such... the Safari Kit is actually pretty simple and easy to duplicate...
J
I've yet to see any turbo system that REALLY uses any considerable/measurable amounts of HP from a motor. I will agree w/ you on the issues regarding parasitic losses of a S/C vs. a turbo. However, most turbos serve no real " problem " in regards to power losses in the parasitic area. They may add backpressure to the system, but as long as the exhaust path is efficient enough i.e. 3" or larger, the turbo is fine. S/C have long been popular w/ the drag racing crowd for many reasons, including reliability and simplicity. This is also usually the big block/small block crowd, who will sacrifice 25-50hp for a 200-300 hp gain. That's why you see most imports w/ turbos, although some silly people like those Jackson Racing s/c's. I'm still hesistant to consider a turbo for my 80, on the grounds of underhood heat and complexity of the system. Most OEM/Aftermarket wastegates were not designed w/ the extremes of 4Wheeling in mind. I doubt many cast and/or SS manifolds would appreciate being heated up to 1200 degree plus, then dunked in icy river water or mud... you don't see that kind of stuff often on a race track. The Safari system may be different, and I understand that they use a fairly beefy manifold. But I still think that the intricacies of a turbo system and the delicacies are too large to deny. Wastegate springs, blow-off valve springs, boost controllers, they are all factors and pieces that must be bulletproof for a turbo system to be 100%. I just don't feel like any aftermarket people make pieces like that yet. Some may argue the point of Pikes Peak racers and Baja and such, and I'll quickly point out that those vehicles are SPECIALLY designed and engineered for such extremes. Some of the manifolds for turbos on Pikes Peak cars cost in excess of $8k. That's JUST the manifold. The wastegates are fluid-damped to prevent g-shock loading of the mechanisms and so-on and so-forth. Anybody w/ a Safari turbo system that really wheels it hard? I mean Rubicon trail, Moab Rim, Tellico hard? For more than a year? I'm curious to know about the long term durability of the turbo system, say 2-5 years... Anybody? If someone can show me evidence of that system holding up to that kind of use over the years, then I'll look hard at designing one of my own... I've got the access to the piping, wastegates, blow-off valves, I/C's engine management and such... the Safari Kit is actually pretty simple and easy to duplicate...
J
