Rivian vs LX570 (2 Viewers)

[ElJayBird]

The gas powered vehicle will go the way of the dinosaur.

This is a brand new industry. It’s going to take time to work out the issues, ramp up production, sort out what customers want, etc.

 

[Itsky]

The gas powered vehicle will go the way of the dinosaur.

This is a brand new industry. It’s going to take time to work out the issues, ramp up production, sort out what customers want, etc.

What Were the First Electric Cars? History and Evolution

In 1900, there were more electric vehicles on American roads than there were gas-powered cars. Learn all about the first electric cars and their evolution.

www.treehugger.com

Electrics cars are 120+ years old.

 

[linuxgod]

I'm pretty sure that putting my LX into high mode will similarly decrease suspension droop. That's less a function of the type of "lift," and more a function of changes in suspension geometry.

I had air suspension on a a 2006 Mercedes ML350 and I liked it. It gave me clearance to go over obstacles that I wouldn't otherwise be able to pass. I used it similarly to how I use AHC. But of course I do prefer the hydraulic setup in the LX.

I think the point is not so much droop as compression. To raise up a vehicle with air suspension you inflate the coils, which makes them stiffer when compressed.

 

[bloc]

Whether air or hydraulic, isn’t the same thing is happening when the suspension lifts itself? Pressure within some part of the system rises to increase preload/ride height?

On AHC the hydraulic pressure must go up to support the weight of the vehicle, if weight is being taken off the coil springs.

 

[se7en10 sport]

The statement "Rivian also has hydraulic suspension" is factually incorrect, and calling it out was the right thing to do. Using hydraulic components in the vehicle, and having hydraulic suspension are different things, and treating them as the same will only serve to confuse people.

So using hydraulic to control body roll and damping isn't consider part of suspension? I'm intrigue with new technology that Rivian and others are applying to their product. Is it better or reliable, won't know until more are put to the test.

 

[TeCKis300]

Whether air or hydraulic, isn’t the same thing is happening when the suspension lifts itself? Pressure within some part of the system rises to increase preload/ride height?

On AHC the hydraulic pressure must go up to support the weight of the vehicle, if weight is being taken off the coil springs.

Yup. And this can be expanded further - whether air, hydraulic, or a traditional coil spring lift. They all potentially have an impact to articulation as relatively more force/weight is needed press a wheel to full compression travel.

 

[coleAK]

Yup. And this can be expanded further - whether air, hydraulic, or a traditional coil spring lift. They all potentially have an impact to articulation as relatively more force/weight is needed press a wheel to full compression travel.

Air springs impact the spring rate much more though. Air needs sag for compliance. I off road with a few guys that have air sprung jeeps and LRs. All turn into a 3 wheeled pogo stick when they put them in high mode. My LX dosn’t get noticeably stiffer in high.

Look at the RTI numbers on the video for rivian it is worse in high. For an LX I’m pretty sure the RTI numbers are better in high. This also why we run 25-30% sag on our air spring MTBs instead of less to increase pedal/BB clearance.

 

[TeCKis300]

So using hydraulic to control body roll and damping isn't consider part of suspension? I'm intrigue with new technology that Rivian and others are applying to their product. Is it better or reliable, won't know until more are put to the test.

Neither of you are wrong.

For the major suspension functions, it can probably be broken up in this way:

	Rivian	LX
Architecture	Independent front and rear	IFS and solid axle rear
Load and Height Support	Air	Hydraulic over air
Damping	Semi-active remote hydraulic damping	Semi-active remote hydraulic damping
Roll Control	Cross linked hydraulic	Cross linked hydraulic and roll bars
Suspension Travel	10.2" (F), 10.6" (R)	9" (F), 10" (R)
RTI (advantage to shorter wheelbase and wider track)	510	645

 

[bloc]

For an LX I’m pretty sure the RTI numbers are better in high.

I believe you have that detail wrong. Didn’t Dan Edmund put a LX on the ramp in high to avoid dragging the chin spoiler, and it did significantly worse than a 200-series cruiser which would have identical travel numbers?

And it makes sense.. at stock ride height our trucks are good at using all of the available travel for articulation. Then take an LX and ask it to maintain 2” higher average ground clearance.. you are effectively removing 2” of available down travel from what is the new ride height.

This doesn’t mean that it won’t perform and ride noticeably better than the LR or Jeep with different implementations. Even if pressures must increase within the LX system to maintain greater ride height, the effective spring *rate* could be much lower than those systems, depending on how toyota designed it to operate.

 

[Bunga]

The LX system is working continuously on multiple axes, how is that semi-active?

More to the point: EV is great around town and short or even moderate trips. My Tesla EV range is vastly inferior in cold and wet conditions. My EV range is meaningless in all of the remote places I go since there are no chargers. The W50 hybrid truck was the best solution, but that is off the market. Comparing a straight EV to a LC200 in 2022 for overlanding is a fools' errand.

This is the vehicle that the LC should be be compared to...

 

[coleAK]

I believe you have that detail wrong. Didn’t Dan Edmund put a LX on the ramp in high to avoid dragging the chin spoiler, and it did significantly worse than a 200-series cruiser which would have identical travel numbers?

And it makes sense.. at stock ride height our trucks are good at using all of the available travel for articulation. Then take an LX and ask it to maintain 2” higher average ground clearance.. you are effectively removing 2” of available down travel from what is the new ride height.

This doesn’t mean that it won’t perform and ride noticeably better than the LR or Jeep with different implementations. Even if pressures must increase within the LX system to maintain greater ride height, the effective spring *rate* could be much lower than those systems, depending on how toyota designed it to operate.

I wasn’t sure on the RTI. But I can tell you off roading in high my LX dosn’t feel any stiffer then in regular. My brothers GC trailhawk gets considerably stiffer in high, pogos all over the place and loses almost all articulation. Videos of the rivian look similar.

 

[TeCKis300]

The LX system is working continuously on multiple axes, how is that semi-active?

It's nomenclature really. For all intents and purposes, it's an active system. Which is then further split into types of suspensions that are semi-active/adaptive vs full active which has actuators that can apply forces in real time to each wheel, possibly paired with a camera. Something like Mercedes e-active body control would be that.

 

[Jason Andrews]

Look at the RTI numbers on the video for rivian it is worse in high. For an LX I’m pretty sure the RTI numbers are better in high. This also why we run 25-30% sag on our air spring MTBs instead of less to increase pedal/BB clearance.

I can't find the video at the moment, but remember seeing a video of a LC200 and LX570 ramping at an event. The LX had a higher RTI when it was in normal mode vs high mode. That's all theoretical since most times you need high mode for approach/departure angles when in the real world or climbing the ramp. Droop rules!

 

[Underdog]

 

[Madtiger]

The question is…what happens when the suspension fails? Either puncture in system or software glitch? Does it go to the lowest setting while you’re in the middle of the trail?

 

[04UZJ100]

The question is…what happens when the suspension fails? Either puncture in system or software glitch? Does it go to the lowest setting while you’re in the middle of the trail?

Bigger question. How are these things holding up in the future years with some miles on them.

 

[White Stripe]

The question is…what happens when the suspension fails? Either puncture in system or software glitch? Does it go to the lowest setting while you’re in the middle of the trail?

Typically suspensions like this fail often and replacement parts quite expensive. Toyota is one of the few exceptions, theyre air suspensions hold up longer than most manufacturers but are still expensive. One of those Rivian air springs is probably 3k or more. The rear spring htdraylic lines hang low and are begging for a rock to rip them off. Everything is so tightly packaged in that Rivian video, if a bushing fails it could cause interference with other components and further damage. The aluminum subframe with cam alignment bolts is a horrible design In the real world. The steel cam adjusters after multiple alignments wallow out the aluminum subframe. The tie rods are fine for street use and dirt roads and something you would see on a toyota highlander. The aluminum subframe also tends to strip out with beefy steel bolts threaded into it forcing helicoil type repairs. The brakes are actually too big, limiting better tire/wheel choices for offroad. This is a Honda Ridgeline class truck mixed with BMW build style/engineering electric vehicle. Also very similar construction to the new defender.

 

[Madtiger]

Typically suspensions like this fail often and replacement parts quite expensive. Toyota is one of the few exceptions, theyre air suspensions hold up longer than most manufacturers but are still expensive. One of those Rivian air springs is probably 3k or more. Everything is so tightly packaged in that Rivian video, if a bushing fails it could cause interference with other components and further damage. The aluminum subframe with cam alignment bolts is a horrible design In the real world. The steel cam adjusters after multiple alignments wallow out the aluminum subframe. The tie rods are fine for street use and dirt roads and something you would see on a toyota highlander. The aluminum subframe also tends to strip out with beefy steel bolts threaded into it forcing helicoil type repairs. The brakes are actually too big, limiting better tire/wheel choices for offroad. This is a Honda Ridgeline class truck mixed with BMW build style/engineering electric vehicle. Also very similar construction to the new defender.

I agree. The tolerances are way too tight for an off-road capable vehicle. One minute give on the bushings can cause metal on metal contact/interference b/w suspension parts.

 

[Omega3651]

Note to all those shilling for these EV models-please take a look at Florida and all the useless chargers and cars spontaneously combusting from corrosion.
Then take a look at the Ford Lightning that can barely tow the trailer without needing a recharge.
These vehicles are a non-starter.
If electric were ever an option, the military industrial complex would have been all over this option decades ago with their unlimited budgets. Electric powertrains are not new tech contrary to popular belief.
Musk is the largest civilian contractor to the military. If the tech were viable, the DoD would already be using it.
It has way too many limitations and not enough of an upside to be viable for any real ICE replacement.

If you hate the LC200 so much then please sell yours so those like myself can buy another to add to our current.

Please stop the propaganda.

 

[slipkid13]

The gas powered vehicle will go the way of the dinosaur.

This is a brand new industry. It’s going to take time to work out the issues, ramp up production, sort out what customers want, etc.

"The gas powered vehicle will go the way of the dinosaur."

This will never, ever happen. ICE vehicles have way to may advantages over EVs to just disappear. If you look at the current pricing (and recent, multiple price hickes) most people will not be able to afford EVs, they are luxury vehicles and priced accordingly.


For all my life I have heard how weak and susceptible our electric grid is. What happens when you add millions of EVs? Does the entire country go the way of California where rolling Brown Outs are the norm and you can't charge your EV?