Rivian R1S vs LC thoughts?

[bloc]

My issue with crap interiors and in general vehicle manufacturers that haven't been doing it long, is the details. The stupid little parts of owning a car for more than six or eight years that no one would predict being an issue when they are new.

Things like.. will the paint on the windshield wiper arms oxidize, leading to corrosion, or linkages under the cowl wear and get sloppy? Will seatbelt mechanisms fail prematurely? (just two of the MANY issues my friend's 6 year old kia sonata had)

There are thousands and thousands of little parts and ways things can fail. Interior is often the most interacted-with part of a vehicle so it gets a lot of attention for "quality", which in this context often means how it feels, looks, and performs.. but my contention is that when a builder can't do durable interiors right, knowing full-well that it gets interacted with.. how are the wipers going to hold up? In that I give "quality" a different definition.. will it continue to function at a level approximating it's new state for a long time?

This type of quality is the kind of stuff toyota and honda do well. Yes practically every 200 brought to america before late 2018 will need a radiator before 130k, but that is one of only a handful of issues that almost any of them have. Most of those won't have any design-related interior issues even as minor as squeaks for double that mileage. And yes, it is a $90k SUV in the later years, but cars much further down the product line of toyota come damn close to that level of "quality", if not necessarily loaded with leather bound books and smelling of rich mahogany.

I'm aware I sound like Robert Pirsig right now. Btw I really, really "got" that book.


So, yes. I eagerly await QUALITY EVs from manufacturers that have earned that reputation from me. Tesla isn't there yet.

 

[TeCKis300]

My issue with crap interiors and in general vehicle manufacturers that haven't been doing it long, is the details. The stupid little parts of owning a car for more than six or eight years that no one would predict being an issue when they are new.

Things like.. will the paint on the windshield wiper arms oxidize, leading to corrosion, or linkages under the cowl wear and get sloppy? Will seatbelt mechanisms fail prematurely? (just two of the MANY issues my friend's 6 year old kia sonata had)

There are thousands and thousands of little parts and ways things can fail. Interior is often the most interacted-with part of a vehicle so it gets a lot of attention for "quality", which in this context often means how it feels, looks, and performs.. but my contention is that when a builder can't do durable interiors right, knowing full-well that it gets interacted with.. how are the wipers going to hold up? In that I give "quality" a different definition.. will it continue to function at a level approximating it's new state for a long time?

This type of quality is the kind of stuff toyota and honda do well. Yes practically every 200 brought to america before late 2018 will need a radiator before 130k, but that is one of only a handful of issues that almost any of them have. Most of those won't have any design-related interior issues even as minor as squeaks for double that mileage. And yes, it is a $90k SUV in the later years, but cars much further down the product line of toyota come damn close to that level of "quality", if not necessarily loaded with leather bound books and smelling of rich mahogany.

I'm aware I sound like Robert Pirsig right now. Btw I really, really "got" that book.


So, yes. I eagerly await QUALITY EVs from manufacturers that have earned that reputation from me. Tesla isn't there yet.

You mean like this? It isn't even an isolated issue in later model year LCs.

2016+ Steering Wheel Leather Issues

Anyone else with a 2016+ have a steering wheel that looks like this? Leather is starting to peel off. Started happening last fall but is getting worse. In a 200 series FB group, that is primarily Aussies, it is a common issue and many of them are getting their wheels replaced in and out of...

forum.ih8mud.com

Different measures of quality but in certain interpretations, Tesla is light years ahead. HD displays, camera views, and interfaces where much of the rest of the would has been still stuck in dot matrix for decades and only now catching up. Quality in designs with ease of use and reduced mental loads. It goes on, some of which Tesla has been literally the only game in town for so many years. Now you find traditional manufacturers trying to copy or catch up. But are they really? Tesla is innovating at a pace well beyond traditional manufacturers.

I think we also confuse design aesthetic with quality. Tesla is minimalist and to some, goes too far. I personally like it. Production issues and quality checks has been something they've had to deal with. But the final intent and execution is actually excellent quality. Ever get into a Tesla taxi with high mileage and wear? The stuff is not low quality in the sense you guys have assumed. It took almost 10 yrs for Toyota to react to the radiator design defect. Tesla does it inline irrespective of even model year.

Understand that Tesla has nothing to prove to any specific person, here or elsewhere. They won over some of their strongest critics. Won over the popular vote with purchasing dollars. You don't find competing manufactures dismissing Tesla anymore because that would be shortsighted. Not saying it's for everyone, but some hang-ups could be personal, imagined, or just not a good fit which totally fair.

 

[bloc]

You mean like this? It isn't even an isolated issue in later model year LCs.

2016+ Steering Wheel Leather Issues

Anyone else with a 2016+ have a steering wheel that looks like this? Leather is starting to peel off. Started happening last fall but is getting worse. In a 200 series FB group, that is primarily Aussies, it is a common issue and many of them are getting their wheels replaced in and out of...

forum.ih8mud.com

View attachment 2890865

Different measures of quality but in certain interpretations, Tesla is light years ahead. HD displays, camera views, and interfaces where much of the rest of the would has been still stuck in dot matrix for decades and only now catching up. Quality in designs with ease of use and reduced mental loads. It goes on, some of which Tesla has been literally the only game in town for so many years. Now you find traditional manufacturers trying to copy or catch up. But are they really? Tesla is innovating at a pace well beyond traditional manufacturers.

I think we also confuse design aesthetic with quality. Tesla is minimalist and to some, goes too far. I personally like it. Production issues and quality checks has been something they've had to deal with. But the final intent and execution is actually excellent quality. Ever get into a Tesla taxi with high mileage and wear? The stuff is not low quality in the sense you guys have assumed. It took almost 10 yrs for Toyota to react to the radiator design defect. Tesla does it inline irrespective of even model year.

Understand that Tesla has nothing to prove to any specific person, here or elsewhere. They won over some of their strongest critics. Won over the popular vote with purchasing dollars. You don't find competing manufactures dismissing Tesla anymore because that would be shortsighted. Not saying it's for everyone, but some hang-ups could be personal, imagined, or just not a good fit which totally fair.

I absolutely put 16+ steering wheels in the not-to-toyota-standards category. You would probably agree that is a very small category, compared to most manufacturers. As for ten years to fix the radiator issue.. the earliest reports here are from 2016, when the early rigs were approaching 100k. We can assume toyota knew about it before then, but.. four years until a fix at the most? I personally feel this is recall territory given the high percentage of units with the problem, but I still think it isn't a huge deal, given the low instances of other issues with the platform.

Design aesthetic is one way of saying my point above, but I think you'd agree it goes beyond appearance, to things like how the buttons feel to press. What the door sounds like when closing. Many people consider this "quality" but I don't.

Panel gaps and videos like posted earlier are indicators to me - that any number of unpredictable small things will act up well before the battery and motors give out, turning an otherwise reliable, potentially very long lasting vehicle into one with a hundred little nagging issues. Not my definition of quality. But then that's exactly what I expect from anyone new to the car-building game, innovator or not.

 

[TeCKis300]

I absolutely put 16+ steering wheels in the not-to-toyota-standards category. You would probably agree that is a very small category, compared to most manufacturers. As for ten years to fix the radiator issue.. the earliest reports here are from 2016, when the early rigs were approaching 100k. We can assume toyota knew about it before then, but.. four years until a fix at the most? I personally feel this is recall territory given the high percentage of units with the problem, but I still think it isn't a huge deal, given the low instances of other issues with the platform.

Design aesthetic is one way of saying my point above, but I think you'd agree it goes beyond appearance, to things like how the buttons feel to press. What the door sounds like when closing. Many people consider this "quality" but I don't.

Panel gaps and videos like posted earlier are indicators to me - that any number of unpredictable small things will act up well before the battery and motors give out, turning an otherwise reliable, potentially very long lasting vehicle into one with a hundred little nagging issues. Not my definition of quality. But then that's exactly what I expect from anyone new to the car-building game, innovator or not.

Yes, a rare unforced error from the likes of Toyota. Which is why we all are here with our shared passion of the 200-series which definitely sets a high benchmark despite having some minor issues that only we as enthusiasts probably know. Radiator design has been in place since 2008. As a manufacturer, Toyota would be well aware ahead of us of the issue but didn't react for a long long time.

New to the car-building game? You must be mistaken because that's no longer Tesla. That's Rivian. Tesla has been manufacturing for 10 yrs now. They're not just re-defining cars, but also the production machine behind it. It's the quality of design that draws me to their products. But also the overall quality which includes day to day and long term use. Satisfying in a way legacy cars are no longer.

 

[MoJ]

Tesla Model Y Owners Find Cooling System Cobbled Together With Home Depot-Grade Fake Wood

The world's most valuable automaker, ladies and gentlemen.

www.thedrive.com

 

[bloc]

Yes, a rare unforced error from the likes of Toyota. Which is why we all are here with our shared passion of the 200-series which definitely sets a high benchmark despite having some minor issues that only we as enthusiasts probably know. Radiator design has been in place since 2008. As a manufacturer, Toyota would be well aware ahead of us of the issue but didn't react for a long long time.

New to the car-building game? You must be mistaken because that's no longer Tesla. That's Rivian. Tesla has been manufacturing for 10 yrs now. They're not just re-defining cars, but also the production machine behind it. It's the quality of design that draws me to their products. But also the overall quality which includes day to day and long term use. Satisfying in a way legacy cars are no longer.

Ten years is very, very new. They can poach all the engineers they want, but there are lessons you learn when as a giant entity you’ve been building cars for a half century.

I agree teslas push for innovation, and this is sorely needed, with the effect on the larger auto market being in a positive direction. But as stated I’ll be waiting for a builder with a better track record of quality (as I define it) before I jump in.

As for rivian, I’ve almost forgotten they exist even with this thread topic, based on how much people bring up tesla.

 

[TeCKis300]

Ten years is very, very new. They can poach all the engineers they want, but there are lessons you learn when as a giant entity you’ve been building cars for a half century.

I agree teslas push for innovation, and this is sorely needed, with the effect on the larger auto market being in a positive direction. But as stated I’ll be waiting for a builder with a better track record of quality (as I define it) before I jump in.

As for rivian, I’ve almost forgotten they exist even with this thread topic, based on how much people bring up tesla.

Of course it's your prerogative. Many of us differ in perspectives between imagined and real from owners.

Speaking of relative age of car companies, sometimes age is not an asset. Traditional car companies are having a hell of a time carrying the burden of their legacy and are fighting internal organizations and constructs that hold them back. With as big and resourceful as they are, how should it be possible for brand new car companies to be popping up and pulling the rug out from under them in this day and age? Not just Tesla, but there's a whole slew of new companies. Not all will succeed of course. Consumers hopefully will win with more options than ever.

 

[bloc]

Consumers hopefully will win with more options than ever.

Hopefully.

Now, I get to wait another decade for toyota to build one that isn't just a get-to-work-and-back implement.

 

[AnyMal]

I will say that there is a valid case for small scale agility, that’s what allowed Tesla to enter and “innovate” so aggressively. I’ve seen mega corporate ineffectiveness on so many personal and professional levels now that I have a hard time believing multi nationals can even course correct properly anymore. I rag on T a lot but if they can pull off all this talk and like maybe get that E-FJ out or that e-taco trd this decade then I will be impressed.

I would dismiss Rivian yet though, it is very much vaporware at this point but I don’t doubt they have good reason. They are probably trying to build out amazons fleet (their largest backer) and consumer second. How far they are on their charging network is my bigger concern.

I’m gonna be buying something this year, and I still don’t know how it would work for us outside of home charging.

 

[Reckless]

Hack Teslas remotely and control them!

who do I hire so we can do gone in 60 seconds with cybertrucks???

 

[TeCKis300]

I will say that there is a valid case for small scale agility, that’s what allowed Tesla to enter and “innovate” so aggressively. I’ve seen mega corporate ineffectiveness on so many personal and professional levels now that I have a hard time believing multi nationals can even course correct properly anymore. I rag on T a lot but if they can pull off all this talk and like maybe get that E-FJ out or that e-taco trd this decade then I will be impressed.

I would dismiss Rivian yet though, it is very much vaporware at this point but I don’t doubt they have good reason. They are probably trying to build out amazons fleet (their largest backer) and consumer second. How far they are on their charging network is my bigger concern.

I’m gonna be buying something this year, and I still don’t know how it would work for us outside of home charging.

Let's get to the LX600H which still hasn't broken cover. The 300-series has been pretty boring honestly without anything new or substantial to really set it apart. While it has made incremental forward progress, there's arguably progress backwards too (beloved tailgate!). If the new Tundra hybrid is any further indication, the 600H just doesn't offer enough to get excited about. They're staying true to quality and durability for markets like Australia and the Middle East, so perhaps it's I who have drifted.

I don't discredit Toyota as they must have done something right to reclaim the largest automaker in the world. Just hope they don't continue to sleep on that success.

 

[AnyMal]

Let's get to the LX600H which still hasn't broken cover. The 300-series has been pretty boring honestly without anything new or substantial to really set it apart. While it has made incremental forward progress, there's arguably progress backwards too (beloved tailgate!). If the new Tundra hybrid is any further indication, the 600H just doesn't offer enough to get excited about. They're staying true to quality and durability for markets like Australia and the Middle East, so perhaps it's I who have drifted.

I don't discredit Toyota as they must have done something right to reclaim the largest automaker in the world. Just hope they don't continue to sleep on that success.

Im starting to doubt that it will be released honestly. Its definitely a head scratcher.
So far i have not seen any negative feedback on the Tundra Hybrid. So im not even sure why the regular power-plant non hybrid variant exists here in the first place. Maybe you can tell me?
Overseas markets have already received their LX 500Ds too. Its sus that we are only getting the LX 600 when all that other LX / LC stuff has been announced abroad in multiple configs. Even the LX sport for japan was announced. If they are supposed to award themselves the best trim, maybe that is it?

TFL just overviewed the 600 with that ghastly lopsided fischer-price screen stack and all. Luxury edition. $126k.... yikes.
I actually like the shape and aside from some of the weird angles and design elements its a handsome vehicle. I bet the ride is stellar too.
I wonder how it will fair against the landscape of big SUVs now. R1S vs LX 600 if i had a gun to my head? It would be real tough.

Im pretty certain that Toyota came up on top of sales because of their pre secured and allocated chip supply. Supply chain, JiT delivery etc is their strong suit after-all.
But im hard on them because i like them, and i really am the exact customer Lexus is looking for. I have 3 in the family. 2016 RX, 2017 GX, 2017 LX.
What i would love is an electric SC 430 for my wife daily and me to play with. With the power of its old V8 . I would buy it right now.

 

[bloc]

Im starting to doubt that it will be released honestly. Its definitely a head scratcher.
So far i have not seen any negative feedback on the Tundra Hybrid. So im not even sure why the regular power-plant non hybrid variant exists here in the first place. Maybe you can tell me?

This is pure speculation, but from spending far too much time under a 200.. where would they put the batteries in a hybrid 300? Seems like there would be much more room in a tundra based on the wheel base alone.

 

[eatSleepWoof]

This is pure speculation, but from spending far too much time under a 200.. where would they put the batteries in a hybrid 300? Seems like there would be much more room in a tundra based on the wheel base alone.

In the Tundra the batteries went inside the interior, in place of under-seat storage in the 2nd row. I'd guess they would find a similar location inside, perhaps in place of the 3rd row seats. Removing those seats would leave a cavity there that could be a good location: large, flat, lower than the cargo area floor, low centre of gravity, pretty much right over the axle, etc.

 

[bloc]

In the Tundra the batteries went inside the interior, in place of under-seat storage in the 2nd row. I'd guess they would find a similar location inside, perhaps in place of the 3rd row seats. Removing those seats would leave a cavity there that could be a good location: large, flat, lower than the cargo area floor, low centre of gravity, pretty much right over the axle, etc.

It would also put it within the interior, which toyota seems to prefer with their other hybrids. Presumably for cooling temperature/simplicity, cleanliness, and environmental reasons.

Would giving up the 3rd row be too much for a luxury trim though? What was offered in the past in bougie trims in places like Japan?

 

[40Man]

Is this absolute? Meaning, to use the vehicle at all the temp needs to be in-range? Or does it simply cut battery range? Or damage the cells to operate outside of that temperature window?

Toyota is working on solid state batteries that will be less sensitive to heat and cold, but still expensive to produce, at least until they reach scale.

 

[rscoleman]

Ok so not a Rivian's truck but the Ford F150 Electric The youtube video is on charging. I would imagine that Rivian and Tesla trucks will be similar. Key things were at 120volt 20amp charging time is 80+hours. At 240volt 80amp charging time is 10 to 8 hours. With high output DC charger 40 minutes to 80% (super charging stations). All numbers make since for use on daily basis within 250 miles of ones home but not really sure how any of these numbers translate to an overlanding vehicle. Maybe I missing something. Just FYI most homes under 3000sq feet have 200amp service to house and run close to that load you would not realistically be able to add 80amp charger with out upgrade to your current service. Interesting viewing for someone that has never owned electric.

 

[Adrenaline6]

The Chinese EV company NIO has an automated battery swap method that takes about 3 minutes or so (NIO Power Swap). Lifetime swaps. This is how you change the game. Only a matter of time before they make a 4x4.

NIO Power | NIO

NIO Power is a mobile internet-based power solution with extensive networks for battery charging and battery swap facilities. Enhanced by Power Cloud, it offers a power service system with chargeable, swappable and upgradable batteries to provide users with power services catering to all scenarios.

www.nio.com

Being launched in Norway.

 

[bloc]

Ok so not a Rivian's truck but the Ford F150 Electric The youtube video is on charging. I would imagine that Rivian and Tesla trucks will be similar. Key things were at 120volt 20amp charging time is 80+hours. At 240volt 80amp charging time is 10 to 8 hours. With high output DC charger 40 minutes to 80% (super charging stations). All numbers make since for use on daily basis within 250 miles of ones home but not really sure how any of these numbers translate to an overlanding vehicle. Maybe I missing something. Just FYI most homes under 3000sq feet have 200amp service to house and run close to that load you would not realistically be able to add 80amp charger with out upgrade to your current service. Interesting viewing for someone that has never owned electric.

Thanks for posting.

The Chinese EV company NIO has an automated battery swap method that takes about 3 minutes or so (NIO Power Swap). Lifetime swaps. This is how you change the game. Only a matter of time before they make a 4x4.

NIO Power | NIO

NIO Power is a mobile internet-based power solution with extensive networks for battery charging and battery swap facilities. Enhanced by Power Cloud, it offers a power service system with chargeable, swappable and upgradable batteries to provide users with power services catering to all scenarios.

www.nio.com

Being launched in Norway.

I vaguely remember Tesla looking at this as well.. years ago though. Maybe the supercharging network seemed better to them. It has definitely been built out extensively in the meantime.

 

[AnyMal]

The Chinese EV company NIO has an automated battery swap method that takes about 3 minutes or so (NIO Power Swap). Lifetime swaps. This is how you change the game. Only a matter of time before they make a 4x4.

NIO Power | NIO

NIO Power is a mobile internet-based power solution with extensive networks for battery charging and battery swap facilities. Enhanced by Power Cloud, it offers a power service system with chargeable, swappable and upgradable batteries to provide users with power services catering to all scenarios.

www.nio.com

Being launched in Norway.

As far as i know NIO was a meme stock and mostly built on a lot of false claims. Is this for real or is it another Nikola?