Rivian R1S vs LC thoughts?

[AnyMal]

I’m at 8 years 96k miles and 5% range loss on a model S and 3.5 years 50k miles and 1% range loss on a model 3. The Tesla loop vehicles are going 400-500k miles on a battery entirely DC supercharged. And let’s be honist electric motors last forever.

Personally my concern for longevity is CPUs and wiring harnesses.

Don’t doubt it and don’t get me wrong not discrediting Tesla. But, at the end of the day you are losing range. If you guys are telling me now in 2022 ten years is achievable I’m very happy to hear that and I’m still an advocate for EV in most use cases. I just don’t like the idea of losing range over time but at some point replacing a battery is still more cost effective than guzzling gas. My side point was that this is still horrible for the environment and has a lot of ethical issues as well as gas. The balance has never favored EV more than now.

I’d love for people to actually test the real world range estimate on their cars though. The other thing is weather will absolutely speed up the degradation, as well as charge cycles, driving habits etc. And of course in extremes there is range impact. I know Tesla on their own closed course can make the numbers seem a bit too good to be true probably but yes absolutely an electric motor is not going to have nearly as much wear as an ICE and practically no maintenance. We are a maybe couple steps from really having solid battery offerings. I know recently some researchers found a way to reverse lithium degradation by voltage spiking during charge. This reverses some type of anode creep or something that is responsible for killing wafers. I’ll find it if anyone is interested but I’m sure you can google for it.

I’m ready to buy still and y’all’s anecdotes are helping. You’ve already answered my original premise as we have gainfully surpassed 5 year longevity, and even 10 apparently. Those are some hell of batteries to be used daily like that and not succumb.

 

[gluaisrothai]

Funny, I just saw this scrolling the news in Virgina about more dangerous roads with continued freezing.

View attachment 2884633

News? Faux?

Don’t doubt it and don’t get me wrong not discrediting Tesla. But, at the end of the day you are losing range. If you guys are telling me now in 2022 ten years is achievable I’m very happy to hear that and I’m still an advocate for EV in most use cases. I just don’t like the idea of losing range over time but at some point replacing a battery is still more cost effective than guzzling gas. My side point was that this is still horrible for the environment and has a lot of ethical issues as well as gas. The balance has never favored EV more than now.

I’d love for people to actually test the real world range estimate on their cars though. The other thing is weather will absolutely speed up the degradation, as well as charge cycles, driving habits etc. And of course in extremes there is range impact. I know Tesla on their own closed course can make the numbers seem a bit too good to be true probably but yes absolutely an electric motor is not going to have nearly as much wear as an ICE and practically no maintenance. We are a maybe couple steps from really having solid battery offerings. I know recently some researchers found a way to reverse lithium degradation by voltage spiking during charge. This reverses some type of anode creep or something that is responsible for killing wafers. I’ll find it if anyone is interested but I’m sure you can google for it.

I’m ready to buy still and y’all’s anecdotes are helping. You’ve already answered my original premise as we have gainfully surpassed 5 year longevity, and even 10 apparently. Those are some hell of batteries to be used daily like that and not succumb.

An often overlooked second life for EV batteries which have lost enough range to warrant replacement is as static domestic packs. There's a healthy trade right now with folks buying up older packs (mostly from buses at the moment) for storage in their home solar/inverter setups.

Maybe something we could all agree on- possibly this is too obvious- an electric drivetrain beats any ICE motor, all day long, in any application. Offroad, onroad, long distance etc. Better torque, efficiency, controllability, longevity, less complexity, almost zero maintenance. Compared to an electric motor, a reciprocating engine is a complete Rube Goldberg mess- regardless of how glorious they sound.

The challenge is power storage and delivery. One gallon of gas stores about 34 kWh of energy and weigh only 6 pounds, so it's a tough yardstick to match. Batteries don't even need to match that number. Given drivetrain efficiency, they match up at about 2 kWh/lb, but we're nowhere near that today. Once that nut is cracked- the debate will be over and done. ICE vehicles will be yesterdays news.

 

[AnyMal]

News? Faux?

An often overlooked second life for EV batteries which have lost enough range to warrant replacement is as static domestic packs. There's a healthy trade right now with folks buying up older packs (mostly from buses at the moment) for storage in their home solar/inverter setups.

Maybe something we could all agree on- possibly this is too obvious- an electric drivetrain beats any ICE motor, all day long, in any application. Offroad, onroad, long distance etc. Better torque, efficiency, controllability, longevity, less complexity, almost zero maintenance. Compared to an electric motor, a reciprocating engine is a complete Rube Goldberg mess- regardless of how glorious they sound.

The challenge is power storage and delivery. One gallon of gas stores about 34 kWh of energy and weigh only 6 pounds, so it's a tough yardstick to match. Batteries don't even need to match that number. Given drivetrain efficiency, they match up at about 2 kWh/lb, but we're nowhere near that today. Once that nut is cracked- the debate will be over and done. ICE vehicles will be yesterdays news.

Yep , dont even get me started on this topic...
Electricity is not exactly an energy source as much as it's an energy medium.
Storage is the giant bottleneck here for potential and thats all built on chemistry.
When you breakdown a gallon of gas, or let's say a gram of plutonium in energy density, batteries look archaic and they are.
The conversion process and means to an end is a big part of the problem It's just that converting the chemical energy of gas is archaic also.

But this all leads to some very non politically correct facts about producing this electricity. Were still burning coal for steam...
This is the modern conundrum and why i like solar and nuclear with solar being the absolute cleanest process that i know about (this is not something i spend alot of time thinking about) We're making progress but I'm not convinced the stage is set at least economically and politically for the real energy revolution.

Either way i fully agree, once this roadblock is gone, there is absolutely no reason to look back on ICE.

 

[TeCKis300]

Yep , dont even get me started on this topic...
Electricity is not exactly an energy source as much as it's an energy medium.
Storage is the giant bottleneck here for potential and thats all built on chemistry.
When you breakdown a gallon of gas, or let's say a gram of plutonium in energy density, batteries look archaic and they are.
The conversion process and means to an end is a big part of the problem It's just that converting the chemical energy of gas is archaic also.

But this all leads to some very non politically correct facts about producing this electricity. Were still burning coal for steam...
This is the modern conundrum and why i like solar and nuclear with solar being the absolute cleanest process that i know about (this is not something i spend alot of time thinking about) We're making progress but I'm not convinced the stage is set at least economically and politically for the real energy revolution.

Either way i fully agree, once this roadblock is gone, there is absolutely no reason to look back on ICE.

Good discussion and points. Interesting take on electricity as a medium. I would also look at it as energy in one of its most readily usable forms without the need for further archaic translation or conversion. Sure the battery does that for us storing it and translating it chemically. From that POV might be archaic, but modern batteries are IMO a thing of beauty. Self contained, conceptually simple, and easily scaled. Inputs and outputs directly in electrical energy. Same for motors.

In my mind, we're now a decade beyond discussion of battery viability in a car. It's here, now, and beginning its domination. On the cusp of 200 kWh+ packs in off-road capable cars - double the capacity that has been built into previous EVs, some already touching on 400 miles range. That's not wimpy level power and reserves. For anyone that's watched Transformers, that's the beginnings of Tesseract level power in the floor boards.

Infrastructure is the only thing needing to catch up.

 

[AnyMal]

Good discussion and points. Interesting take on electricity as a medium. I would also look at it as energy in one of its most readily usable forms without the need for further archaic translation or conversion. Sure the battery does that for us storing it and translating it chemically. From that POV might be archaic, but modern batteries are IMO a thing of beauty. Self contained, conceptually simple, and easily scaled. Inputs and outputs directly in electrical energy. Same for motors.

In my mind, we're now a decade beyond discussion of battery viability in a car. It's here, now, and beginning its domination. On the cusp of 200 kWh+ packs in off-road capable cars - double the capacity that has been built into previous EVs, some already touching on 400 miles range. That's not wimpy level power and reserves. For anyone that's watched Transformers, that's the beginnings of Tesseract level power in the floor boards.

Infrastructure is the only thing needing to catch up.

Yep, if your telling me your battery is good after 10 years honestly thats all ive really been waiting to see myself.

Here is that paper btw. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/01/220104095611.htm

 

[Angelo1]

News? Faux?

An often overlooked second life for EV batteries which have lost enough range to warrant replacement is as static domestic packs. There's a healthy trade right now with folks buying up older packs (mostly from buses at the moment) for storage in their home solar/inverter setups.

Maybe something we could all agree on- possibly this is too obvious- an electric drivetrain beats any ICE motor, all day long, in any application. Offroad, onroad, long distance etc. Better torque, efficiency, controllability, longevity, less complexity, almost zero maintenance. Compared to an electric motor, a reciprocating engine is a complete Rube Goldberg mess- regardless of how glorious they sound.

The challenge is power storage and delivery. One gallon of gas stores about 34 kWh of energy and weigh only 6 pounds, so it's a tough yardstick to match. Batteries don't even need to match that number. Given drivetrain efficiency, they match up at about 2 kWh/lb, but we're nowhere near that today. Once that nut is cracked- the debate will be over and done. ICE vehicles will be yesterdays news.

Let me guess, you’re a cnn, msnbc follower.

 

[Angelo1]

Yep , dont even get me started on this topic...
Electricity is not exactly an energy source as much as it's an energy medium.
Storage is the giant bottleneck here for potential and thats all built on chemistry.
When you breakdown a gallon of gas, or let's say a gram of plutonium in energy density, batteries look archaic and they are.
The conversion process and means to an end is a big part of the problem It's just that converting the chemical energy of gas is archaic also.

But this all leads to some very non politically correct facts about producing this electricity. Were still burning coal for steam...
This is the modern conundrum and why i like solar and nuclear with solar being the absolute cleanest process that i know about (this is not something i spend alot of time thinking about) We're making progress but I'm not convinced the stage is set at least economically and politically for the real energy revolution.

Either way i fully agree, once this roadblock is gone, there is absolutely no reason to look back on ICE.

Solar is definitely not clean. It produces a crap ton of toxic waste to create them. All these EV fanatics are nuts if they think they are superior for driving around in an ev. They actually think they are making a difference. Ride a bike or walk to work. Now you’re making a real impact.

 

[AnyMal]

Solar is definitely not clean. It produces a crap ton of toxic waste to create them. All these EV fanatics are nuts if they think they are superior for driving around in an ev. They actually think they are making a difference. Ride a bike or walk to work. Now you’re making a real impact.

No doubt buddy, we haven’t even talked much about raw materials and manufacturing processes. Funny thing traditional well drilling probably wins by a mile given the sustainability of the reserves that were tapped. Some wells produce for a long long time after their tapped. I’m not against oil, i just don’t have a dog in the race but if anything I’m Persian living in Tx currently I should like it lol.

 

[Itsky]

Solar is definitely not clean. It produces a crap ton of toxic waste to create them. All these EV fanatics are nuts if they think they are superior for driving around in an ev. They actually think they are making a difference. Ride a bike or walk to work. Now you’re making a real impact.

I agree the whole equation includes more than just the tailpipe. The equation of environmental impacts would include at least:

1. manufacturing (vehicles and parts)
2. infrastructure (gas & charging stations)
3. maintenance (disposal of waste)
4. energy production (power plants vs drilling/refining)
5. the tailpipe

Overall, which (EVs or ICE) impact the environment least? EVs win #5 for sure, but as @Angelo points out, do they win in #1-#4? I don't know. Maybe so.

Also, driving less (working from home sometimes) and flying less would have huge impacts.

 

[AnyMal]

I agree the whole equation includes more than just the tailpipe. The equation of environmental impacts would include at least:

1. manufacturing (vehicles and parts)
2. infrastructure (gas & charging stations)
3. maintenance (disposal of waste)
4. energy production (power plants vs drilling/refining)
5. the tailpipe

Overall, which (EVs or ICE) impact the environment least? EVs win #5 for sure, but as @Angelo points out, do they win in #1-#4? I don't know. Maybe so.

Also, driving less (working from home sometimes) and flying less would have huge impacts.

Nah bro just buy a Tesla bro problem solved bro . Let your conscience be free bro.

In all seriousness that is why I’m looking at this strictly from an economical perspective.

 

[gluaisrothai]

Let me guess, you’re a cnn, msnbc follower.

I am not. I prefer less polarized sources of information than either left or right wing mouthpieces.

 

[stonepa]

I recently bought a Porsche Taycan Cross Tourismo electric for around town. I will say, even with 200+ miles of range, and just driving around the Seattle metro, I have range anxiety. I think it is going to be great for hauling skis, kayaks, mountain bikes, etc locally. But beyond that, I'm not mentally ready for a cross country trip in an electric 4x4. Can you imagine driving a Rivian to Baja? I can't. I have a Rivian RS1 on 'order' (not just the wait list) and was recently told that it will be mid-2023 before it is built. I could most likely get a Rivian truck sooner than that but there is a good chance I will cancel the whole thing. At this point, I just don't see anything out there that interests me in replacing my 2015 LC. When it comes time, I most likely will buy a used 2021. That should last me for the remainder of my life that I will be driving on big trips.

 

[gluaisrothai]

Solar is definitely not clean. It produces a crap ton of toxic waste to create them. All these EV fanatics are nuts if they think they are superior for driving around in an ev. They actually think they are making a difference. Ride a bike or walk to work. Now you’re making a real impact.

Depending on your diet, the EV might be environmentally more favorable than walking.

And BTW I'm not an EV fanatic, just a realist. My current fleet:

Tesla P85D
Fiat 500e
KTM 1290ADV
DeLorean DMC12
LC200 HE, Harrop equipped
Piper PA32R-301T

I like to see the gasoline reserved for where it's currently irreplaceable, like in the old cars and the planes.

Best,
Ken

 

[bloc]

Let me guess, you’re a cnn, msnbc follower.

This adds nothing constructive to the conversation.

 

[stonepa]

Solar is definitely not clean. It produces a crap ton of toxic waste to create them. All these EV fanatics are nuts if they think they are superior for driving around in an ev. They actually think they are making a difference. Ride a bike or walk to work. Now you’re making a real impact.

One major difference, toxic waste is not destroying the climate. CHG caused by the burning of oil, natural gas, and coal is. Can't wait till all electricity is solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, or NUCLEAR. Then we can save the remaining dino juice to power my LC, my float plane, and my boat.

Thinking heavily of finally retiring my old Volvo XC-70 D5 for an electric. Where I have a home in Iceland, electricity is generated via geothermal. Heats my house, warms my pool, and will power my car.

 

[White Stripe]

There's 400-500+ mile range models on the horizon. That should make it easier to plan for trips. If one can't plan around that, these cars will literally tell you how to plan for it. In the near future, running out of power may just require the presence of another EV. Already, many brands and models have planned very high output power receptacles. Could be as easy as plugging into another. Bonus is no more messing with low power dual batts for car camping. Want to power a microwave or blender? Power A/C on an RV? Heck, power the whole house in a backup situation. Advantages and disadvantages.

With more range comes more charging time. I think the new silverado is like 200kwh. I think that would take like 24 hours to charge at home. Also range is cut significantly when towing. What I think would be a better option is to have better public transportation in cities so people don't need cars at all.

 

[Angelo1]

This adds nothing constructive to the conversation.

But saying “Faux news” is constructive? Hmmm

 

[AnyMal]

Damn man i need a plane to keep up now? Seems like it between stone and tex and gluais...
Is it oil money? LOL

@White Stripe is that for real?
If i cant charge 80% at home overnight on a dual phase 240 circuit then im out again.
Im not putting a powerstation grid node in my garage.

 

[gluaisrothai]

I agree the whole equation includes more than just the tailpipe. The equation of environmental impacts would include at least:

1. manufacturing (vehicles and parts)
2. infrastructure (gas & charging stations)
3. maintenance (disposal of waste)
4. energy production (power plants vs drilling/refining)
5. the tailpipe

Overall, which (EVs or ICE) impact the environment least? EVs win #5 for sure, but as @Angelo points out, do they win in #1-#4? I don't know. Maybe so.

Also, driving less (working from home sometimes) and flying less would have huge impacts.

I'd be interested in seeing an accounting of 1; I suspect maybe a wash given lower component counts in an EV drivetrain vs more complex battery assemblies.

For 2, the end to end for both electricity and gas needs to be compared. For example, that 34 kWh gallon of gas consumes about 5 kWh to extract and refine. The Model S can drive 20 miles on that same 5 kWh. Put the gallon into an LC200 you'll get 12 miles if you're lucky.

For 3, scrapping of vehicle chassis and electrical parts is likely a wash except for the battery. Though the ICE probably has more toxic oil waste. Really need to see the establishment of a battery second life supply chain with a focus on distributed storage.

For 4, related to 2. It's probably more efficient to use electricity in whatever form it's generated to use directly as motive power, than to use in the extraction and refining of fossil fuels.

For 5, absolutely, EV or hydrogen wins this one. Either no local emissions, or water for the H2.

I recently bought a Porsche Taycan Cross Tourismo electric for around town. I will say, even with 200+ miles of range, and just driving around the Seattle metro, I have range anxiety. I think it is going to be great for hauling skis, kayaks, mountain bikes, etc locally. But beyond that, I'm not mentally ready for a cross country trip in an electric 4x4. Can you imagine driving a Rivian to Baja? I can't. I have a Rivian RS1 on 'order' (not just the wait list) and was recently told that it will be mid-2023 before it is built. I could most likely get a Rivian truck sooner than that but there is a good chance I will cancel the whole thing. At this point, I just don't see anything out there that interests me in replacing my 2015 LC. When it comes time, I most likely will buy a used 2021. That should last me for the remainder of my life that I will be driving on big trips.

Gas can be a challenge in Baja, let alone electricity. I had to knock on a few doors to buy gas near Catavina when I found the only Pemex within my remaining fuel range had burned down.

But saying “Faux news” is constructive? Hmmm

My bad, I typed it but meant not to send it. But I wouldn't trust Fox any more than I would CNN, they're each too polarized.

 

[AnyMal]

I'd be interested in seeing an accounting of 1; I suspect maybe a wash given lower component counts in an EV drivetrain vs more complex battery assemblies.

For 2, the end to end for both electricity and gas needs to be compared. For example, that 34 kWh gallon of gas consumes about 5 kWh to extract and refine. The Model S can drive 20 miles on that same 5 kWh. Put the gallon into an LC200 you'll get 12 miles if you're lucky.

For 3, scrapping of vehicle chassis and electrical parts is likely a wash except for the battery. Though the ICE probably has more toxic oil waste. Really need to see the establishment of a battery second life supply chain with a focus on distributed storage.

For 4, related to 2. It's probably more efficient to use electricity in whatever form it's generated to use directly as motive power, than to use in the extraction and refining of fossil fuels.

For 5, absolutely, EV or hydrogen wins this one. Either no local emissions, or water for the H2.


Gas can be a challenge in Baja, let alone electricity. I had to knock on a few doors to buy gas near Catavina when I found the only Pemex within my remaining fuel range had burned down.


My bad, I typed it but meant not to send it. But I wouldn't trust Fox any more than I would CNN, they're each too polarized.

Agree on that last note but i still tune in to all sources to get the BS pol climate narrative headwinds.
But the correct nomenclature is Faux News, and CNNLOL. Also don't forget about MSDNC.