Reliability called into question (3 Viewers)

[LCQ]

First off - it's a sample size of 1. But still, this is not what I want to see from a brand new Toyota Tacoma. I assumed Toyota built this thing to handle all 4 wheels spinning on ice and snow. I'm sure details will be added as TFL hasn't yet released a video after taking it to the dealer.

Yes, the TFL video is a little click-baity. But hell, I think it's warranted. I don't think a brand new Tacoma should leave you without 4wd so easily. My desire on buying a 2024 MY 250 or 550 has waned a bit.

 

[TheLCProject]

It's not like it was anything really that technical. Wheels were roughly straight and all surfaces seemed similarly slick.

I wonder if you'd get this failure if they had all four wheels on rollers and gave it some gas.

Recall that the front diff on the Tacoma might be similar to the outside-of-US (J250) LC250 and similar to one of the variants of the J252 (GX550):

New LC Differentials

Looks like they are shared with LC300. IMO that's great news. Same as Tacoma, non-hybrid Tundra as well. Unifying all of the powertrain should make aftermarket gearing easy and available. Presumably the off the shelf GR Sport front locker diff is a bolt in swap?? I had some other...

forum.ih8mud.com

I don't know the differences between the SD20D (J250, J252), SD20DD (Tacoma with ADD), and the SD22B (J252, J300, etc)

 

[Phillyd2]

Those idiots are just painful to watch.

 

[TheLCProject]

Those idiots are just painful to watch.

About as painful as a brand new $50k (my guess) truck falling apart on a small icy step?

"This go-anywhere truck is entirely new for 2024 with epic adventures in mind, improving upon every winning aspect that has made it a stalwart for truck buyers for years along with Toyota’s legendary quality, durability, and reliability and much, much more."

“With even more off-road capability and the quality, durability, and reliability that our customers expect along with a host of options for every owner, we’re confident that Tacoma will remain the top choice for mid-size pickup buyers when it arrives later this year,” says Toyota group vice president and general manager Dave Christ.

 

[Phillyd2]

About as painful as a brand new $50k (my guess) truck falling apart on a small icy step?

"This go-anywhere truck is entirely new for 2024 with epic adventures in mind, improving upon every winning aspect that has made it a stalwart for truck buyers for years along with Toyota’s legendary quality, durability, and reliability and much, much more."

“With even more off-road capability and the quality, durability, and reliability that our customers expect along with a host of options for every owner, we’re confident that Tacoma will remain the top choice for mid-size pickup buyers when it arrives later this year,” says Toyota group vice president and general manager Dave Christ.

Might be best to first learn what actually went wrong.

 

[LCQ]

Might be best to first learn what actually went wrong.

Too bad we don't live in a day and age where a brand would do a video teardown to show what went wrong (if it was mechanical) and how this does or doesn't effect reliability.

 

[Jetboy]

I expect TFL will do a pretty good job of exploring what went wrong here. They usually do. It's interesting and gets a lot of engagement.

 

[jayp2]

Those idiots are just painful to watch.

Surprised no one got run over

 

[Rednexus]

Gotta say that's nothing compared to the abuse I give my GX470 and it's tiny 8" rear diff and 7.5" front diff in the snow . Or the various Subaru's I've owned in the past.

It does look like the failure was at least partially A-TRAC related, which is known for breaking front diff components. I also think their tires were over-inflated for snow. Either way, it's another reason I'd like a front locker

 

[jwbc84]

The video is already being picked up by other sources. A bit of a PR issue for Toyota. Sheldon better get on it quick.

 

[jayp2]

Gotta say that's nothing compared to the abuse I give my GX470 and it's tiny 8" rear diff and 7.5" front diff in the snow . Or the various Subaru's I've owned in the past.

It does look like the failure was at least partially A-TRAC related, which is known for breaking front diff components. I also think their tires were over-inflated for snow. Either way, it's another reason I'd like a front locker

Not sure I understand what a front locker would have done to prevent this outcome

I've put far more stress on everything from diesel vw jetta to various 4x4's 1000 times over and never broken or had drive train fail like that

My toyota guy has expressed concerns about whats being released in light of something like 20 significant tsb/recalls in place for the new tundra alone

I keep thinking about whether I should pull trigger on a G5 4R before they go poof

 

[Rednexus]

Not sure I understand what a front locker would have done to prevent this outcome

I've put far more stress on everything from diesel vw jetta to various 4x4's 1000 times over and never broken or had drive train fail like that

My toyota guy has expressed concerns about whats being released in light of something like 20 significant tsb/recalls in place for the new tundra alone

I keep thinking about whether I should pull trigger on a G5 4R before they go poof

It would avoid the shock loading of ATRAC clamping down the brake caliper on a spinning wheel and rapidly transferring power to the other wheel.

Locker or no locker that should not have broke it.

 

[jayp2]

It would avoid the shock loading of ATRAC clamping down the brake caliper on a spinning wheel and rapidly transferring power to the other wheel.

Locker or no locker that should not have broke it.

No question it shouldnt have broken.....it snapped like some part was made of chinesium

I'm not convinced that ATRAC induced rapid loading of drive components is fundamentally different than a locked front axle suddenly loading up when traction is suddenly present

Either way the shock is spread across the axle, diff etc to opposite wheel/front drive shaft and transmission isnt it?

I wish they had taken the time to look to see if the front axle was still turning when power applied......would have at least told us if the issue was xfer or forward of xfer

 

[Rednexus]

No question it shouldnt have broken.....it snapped like some part was made of chinesium

I'm not convinced that ATRAC induced rapid loading of drive components is fundamentally different than a locked front axle suddenly loading up when traction is suddenly present

Either way the shock is spread across the axle, diff etc to opposite wheel/front drive shaft and transmission isnt it?

I wish they had taken the time to look to see if the front axle was still turning when power applied......would have at least told us if the issue was xfer or forward of xfer

My post said "It does look like the failure was at least partially A-TRAC related". I'm not convinced the ATRAC killed it or did not kill it and am not trying to convince you of that either as we have limited information to go on .

If we want to get in the weeds, it's a causational observation as A-TRAC was clearly engaging multiple times in the moments prior to the death of whatever component broke. If that component is behind the front pinion....probably not A-TRAC related. If it's after the front pinion you, Toyota, or someone else would need to convince me that A-TRAC wasn't at least a contributing factor as it was literally the only shock loading being applied to the axle at that time (although we both agree it should never have broke and therefore probably can't be the main cause of death).

FWIW I have a nanny-off button on my GX that complete kills A-TRAC. I think it's a lot safer on drivetrain components in the snow, in addition to being more fun. I really dislike the sensation of A-TRAC clamping down on a fast-spinning wheel and immediately directing 100% of the power going to that axle to the other wheel. It's fundamentally a reactive system as it allows vehicle speed to slow down and then causes the abrupt power transfer. A locker would not lose traction to begin with.

 

[Jetboy]

I never found ATRAC to be problematic as far as breakage. My sample size personally is only 2 vehicles, but I've also never seen ATRAC/MTS break on other vehicles on the trail with a ton of trail miles with other Toyotas. I've seen more ARB locker failures than MTS breakage. It's firm when it stops the tires, but it's not shock loading them like you get when you engage a locker or catch traction while spinning. This was so minor of an obstacle that I think it almost has to be one of the shift collars popping out.

I should add that ATRAC comes in a lot of different flavors. The fully MTS Rock mode in my 4Runner was super aggressive and very effective. 95% of a front locker. In my Tundra - it's very mild to the point that I'm sometimes not sure if it's even working. It's not totally worthless. But it's also not very good. I don't worry about breaking anything, but I would need to replace it with lockers if I were doing any meaningful off-roading in it. It's just not good enough. In the 4Runner - it could replace lockers for almost everything.

 

[Rednexus]

I never found ATRAC to be problematic as far as breakage. My sample size personally is only 2 vehicles, but I've also never seen ATRAC/MTS break on other vehicles on the trail with a ton of trail miles with other Toyotas. I've seen more ARB locker failures than MTS breakage. It's firm when it stops the tires, but it's not shock loading them like you get when you engage a locker or catch traction while spinning. This was so minor of an obstacle that I think it almost has to be one of the shift collars popping out.

I should add that ATRAC comes in a lot of different flavors. The fully MTS Rock mode in my 4Runner was super aggressive and very effective. 95% of a front locker. In my Tundra - it's very mild to the point that I'm sometimes not sure if it's even working. It's not totally worthless. But it's also not very good. I don't worry about breaking anything, but I would need to replace it with lockers if I were doing any meaningful off-roading in it. It's just not good enough. In the 4Runner - it could replace lockers for almost everything.

My 470 has an older system. I find it very effective in mud, rocks, and most sand (if the tires are aired down). In a diagonal spin situation (one tire on each axle off the ground), it really struggles, and it's pretty worthless in snow when it kills power in conjunction with VSC and alternates between clamping wheels and letting them spin. Hence my nanny-off system that allows for all the wheelspin one could ever want .

I've never broken anything either, but it's a very disconcerting sensation trying to go up a diagonal spin obstacle that even a rear locker would walk right up. That's a pretty small amount of my wheeling, but the situations that really make you pucker.

 

[Jetboy]

My 470 has an older system. I find it very effective in mud, rocks, and most sand (if the tires are aired down). In a diagonal spin situation (one tire on each axle off the ground), it really struggles, and it's pretty worthless in snow when it kills power in conjunction with VSC and alternates between clamping wheels and letting them spin. Hence my nanny-off system that allows for all the wheelspin one could ever want .

I've never broken anything either, but it's a very disconcerting sensation trying to go up a diagonal spin obstacle that even a rear locker would walk right up. That's a pretty small amount of my wheeling, but the situations that really make you pucker.

I think they improved those situations between the generations. The J150 version is still really noisy, but it's also relatively soft in how it engages when the tires are spinning. MTS lets you choose to allow a good bit of wheel spin in the sand settings and very little in the rock setting. I never really used anything in between the two. And TBH I rarely used ATRAC because it oddly wasn't on the same selector dial as MTS. I've never understood why Toyota had both in the same vehicle as separate options.

 

[Adam R]

We did a recovery the other night on a brand new Tacoma with paper license plates and stock all season tires on it. Vehicle made it about 100 yards down a snow covered road and managed to shear off the left front stub axle, i.e the break was just outboard of the outer CV joint. Based on his tracks going down this road, I'm sure his break was due to lots of skinny pedal and a rapid transition of wheel speed from one tire to the other on that axle. He was hoping the dealer would cover the "failure" under warranty.....

 

[Corbet]

Pretty sure my local dealer told me there was a hood placed on all Tacomas last week. As this discussion was Tacoma based my attention was not 100%. However this would explain it. I can’t imagine there is any significant difference in the front diff from Tacoma to LC-250. Drive flanges yes as LC is full time.

 

[yodaslim]

If some regular guy had this happen to him and came on this forum to get advice I'd be much more concerned. Something about some dudes with a YouTube channel and 500k subscribers posting this on a video... This is the kind of stuff that happens that draws a lot of attention and that's exactly what they want because it makes them a lot of money.