I was thinking “immobilizer” yesterday after reading this...so that’s two...one more and it warrants investigation.
Crank no start - Not Immobilizer - Fuse Box (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter drjman
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- Thread starter
- #22
Definitely not immobilizer. I have an EFI bypass in place and I ALWAYS check for the blinking red light when turning over.
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- Thread starter
- #23
Brand new fuel filter with the new pump.
It feels like there's no gas going for some reason. I haven't done testing at the filter yet during ignition. It's a weird issue.... and no DTC's.
It feels like there's no gas going for some reason. I haven't done testing at the filter yet during ignition. It's a weird issue.... and no DTC's.
Avoid just throwing parts at, if you can.
Some thoughts
If not electrical/sensor, which should have a pending code at minimum. Although the immobilize by-pass indicates you've a fuse box issue, that may be related. Otherwise fuel delivery is likely culprit.
A quick pressure test is to pinch off the fuel return line while idling. Edited: Pinching could damage line! IIRC (been a while since I've done this test) you should hear/see the RPM rise in a second or two. I suggest you google this quick test.
Fuel pump motors like all motor tend to be weakest when hot, so motor was likely not issue on start up. On the other-hand, the fuel pumps themselves tend to be weakest when cold. Just because you replaced the pump doesn't mean it is a good one. Even a new Toyota OEM part can be defective, but not as often as aftermarket junk.
A test of fuel flow may be helpful. But of course, condition must be present at the time of test. Quick test: Disconnecting fuel line down stream of fuel filter. Attach a rubber hose to filter running it to a catch can. Then crank engine, and fuel should fill catch can.
The fuel pressure regular can be difficult to diagnose. According to Chuck at FIS they give varying MPG (mostly on hot days around 90 F) if needle rusty. These start weakening/rusty around 100K mi. They can also leak internally, in which case, you may smell gas in it's vacuum line.
A very common symptom of leaky fuel injectors, is hard start. They hold fuel under until next start. If they leak, they no fuel available for next start up. So pressure must build while engine is cranking. When to Clean or Replace fuel injectors
Fuel dampening device must also be checked for proper operation.
Some tune items:
Make sure all vacuum line are good and no vacuum leaks, his includes air box, PCV and intake gaskets & T-body.
Makes sure MAF clean and working as designed.
Battery, post and clamps need to be good, clean and greased.
Is throttle body clean.
How are spark plugs and coils.
Is air filter good.
Fuel return line is the one on DS near fire wall that clips onto engine cover.
Some thoughts
If not electrical/sensor, which should have a pending code at minimum. Although the immobilize by-pass indicates you've a fuse box issue, that may be related. Otherwise fuel delivery is likely culprit.
A quick pressure test is to pinch off the fuel return line while idling. Edited: Pinching could damage line! IIRC (been a while since I've done this test) you should hear/see the RPM rise in a second or two. I suggest you google this quick test.
Fuel pump motors like all motor tend to be weakest when hot, so motor was likely not issue on start up. On the other-hand, the fuel pumps themselves tend to be weakest when cold. Just because you replaced the pump doesn't mean it is a good one. Even a new Toyota OEM part can be defective, but not as often as aftermarket junk.
A test of fuel flow may be helpful. But of course, condition must be present at the time of test. Quick test: Disconnecting fuel line down stream of fuel filter. Attach a rubber hose to filter running it to a catch can. Then crank engine, and fuel should fill catch can.
The fuel pressure regular can be difficult to diagnose. According to Chuck at FIS they give varying MPG (mostly on hot days around 90 F) if needle rusty. These start weakening/rusty around 100K mi. They can also leak internally, in which case, you may smell gas in it's vacuum line.
A very common symptom of leaky fuel injectors, is hard start. They hold fuel under until next start. If they leak, they no fuel available for next start up. So pressure must build while engine is cranking. When to Clean or Replace fuel injectors
Fuel dampening device must also be checked for proper operation.
Some tune items:
Make sure all vacuum line are good and no vacuum leaks, his includes air box, PCV and intake gaskets & T-body.
Makes sure MAF clean and working as designed.
Battery, post and clamps need to be good, clean and greased.
Is throttle body clean.
How are spark plugs and coils.
Is air filter good.
Fuel return line is the one on DS near fire wall that clips onto engine cover.
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- Thread starter
- #25
Avoid just throwing parts at, if you can.
Some thoughts
If not electrical/sensor, which should have a pending code at minimum. Although the immobilize by-pass indicates you've a fuse box issue, that may be related. Otherwise fuel delivery is likely culprit.
A quick pressure test is to pinch off the fuel return line while idling. IIRC (been a while since I've done this test) you should hear/see the RPM rise in a second or two. I suggest you google this quick test.
Fuel pump motors like all motor tend to be weakest when hot, so motor was likely not issue on start up. On the other-hand, the fuel pumps themselves tend to be weakest when cold. Just because you replaced the pump doesn't mean it is a good one. Even a new Toyota OEM part can be defective, but not as often as aftermarket junk.
A test of fuel flow may be helpful. But of course, condition must be present at the time of test. Quick test: Disconnecting fuel line down stream of fuel filter. Attach a rubber hose to filter running it to a catch can. Then crank engine, and fuel should fill catch can.
The fuel pressure regular can be difficult to diagnose. According to Chuck at FIS they give varying MPG (mostly on hot days around 90 F) if needle rusty. These start weakening/rusty around 100K mi. They can also leak internally, in which case, you may smell gas in it's vacuum line.
A very common symptom of leaky fuel injectors, is hard start. They hold fuel under until next start. If they leak, they no fuel available for next start up. So pressure must build while engine is cranking. When to Clean or Replace fuel injectors
Fuel dampening device must also be checked for proper operation.
Some tune items:
Make sure all vacuum line are good and no vacuum leaks, his includes air box, PCV and intake gaskets & T-body.
Makes sure MAF clean and working as designed.
Battery, post and clamps need to be good, clean and greased.
Is throttle body clean.
How are spark plugs and coils.
Is air filter good.
Fuel return line is the one on DS near fire wall that clips onto engine cover.
View attachment 1877019 View attachment 1877024
View attachment 1877025 View attachment 1877026
So a quick run down....
1. Brand new Denso fuel pump and filter. Injectors are all good...(cleaned and tested).
2. Just replaced the starter and had my mechanic go over everything ( I also double checked all the mini hoses linking everywhere).
3. MAF has been recently (6 months) cleaned.
4. Battery is new and tests fine
5. Throttle body has been cleaned recently
6. Spark plugs are new and Denso
7. Air filter is new
I'll check the fuel return line and fuel dampening device. Just to be sure
I had a leaky fuel injector but the bushings were replaced and no leaks. I've watched it idle and turn over and no issues. No smell of gas.
The fuel pressure regulator is another place i can look into. And i'll go through the fuel flow test with the bucket.
It definitely FEELS like a fuel delivery issue.
It's completely random and the last post i did was of the recent symptoms. There's no rhyme or reason, hot or cold, where the issue happens. This most recent issue was out of the norm. The main antagonist was cold mornings (50 degrees....i'm in SoCal) and less than a 1/3 tank of gas.
I've been trying to find a common denominator and the closest or most consistent one was having a 1/4 tank or less of gas. That's what started this all. Now that it's happening while warm, with a full tank, etc, it's throwing me for a loop.
I appreciate the advice, really!!. I think it lies with a sensor or a fuel line somewhere.
Once it starts up and stays running.....there are no symptoms or hesitations that lead me anywhere. It runs like a dream when running!
AND NO CODES ARE BEING THROWN!!
I keep my code reader in the truck and hook it up whenever the issue comes up.....NO CODES!!
You've done a great deal of good works.
Some code readers just aren't that good at reading pending codes. MINI VCI cable may reveal more or have Toyota dealer hook up to see if they pick up on something. If this was a sensor, relay or resistor issue I would think a pending code would be present.
You said:
"I had a leaky fuel injector but the bushings were replaced and no leaks. I've watched it idle and turn over and no issues. No smell of gas."
If by "bushing" you mean the "Insulator" at bottom of injector that seals and dampen vibration between intake manifold and fuel injector that's great. But that is not the leak I'm speaking of. What I'm referring to is fuel injector not holding fuel during rest (engine off).
I sent a set of injectors form a 2006 with 200K mi to Chuck at FIS for cleaning, testing & rebuilding. He found 5 leaking.
If fuel leaks out of injector, then no fuel is readily available for start-up. The engine then needs to crank (long crank) for fuel pump to run fuel back into injector and build pressure.
You said:
"The fuel pressure regulator is another place i can look into. And i'll go through the fuel flow test with the bucket." To be clear; the bucket or fuel line to catch can test, has nothing to do with fuel pressure regulator (FPR). It just to see that fuel is getting to and passes the filter while condition of hard start present.
FPR would have more to do with issues while engine running. Although if not holding proper pressure. This could increase time leaky injectors take to fill back up and pressurize.
Just throwing this out there:
Did you see any foreign matter in fuel tank. I ask because I had fuel delivery issue as a teenager working on a customer car. On it's third return, after (1st visit) carburetor rebuild and filter replacement, then (2nd visit) fuel pump replacement I noticed dried egg around fuel tank fill inlet.
Some code readers just aren't that good at reading pending codes. MINI VCI cable may reveal more or have Toyota dealer hook up to see if they pick up on something. If this was a sensor, relay or resistor issue I would think a pending code would be present.
You said:
"I had a leaky fuel injector but the bushings were replaced and no leaks. I've watched it idle and turn over and no issues. No smell of gas."
If by "bushing" you mean the "Insulator" at bottom of injector that seals and dampen vibration between intake manifold and fuel injector that's great. But that is not the leak I'm speaking of. What I'm referring to is fuel injector not holding fuel during rest (engine off).
I sent a set of injectors form a 2006 with 200K mi to Chuck at FIS for cleaning, testing & rebuilding. He found 5 leaking.
If fuel leaks out of injector, then no fuel is readily available for start-up. The engine then needs to crank (long crank) for fuel pump to run fuel back into injector and build pressure.
You said:
"The fuel pressure regulator is another place i can look into. And i'll go through the fuel flow test with the bucket." To be clear; the bucket or fuel line to catch can test, has nothing to do with fuel pressure regulator (FPR). It just to see that fuel is getting to and passes the filter while condition of hard start present.
FPR would have more to do with issues while engine running. Although if not holding proper pressure. This could increase time leaky injectors take to fill back up and pressurize.
Just throwing this out there:
Did you see any foreign matter in fuel tank. I ask because I had fuel delivery issue as a teenager working on a customer car. On it's third return, after (1st visit) carburetor rebuild and filter replacement, then (2nd visit) fuel pump replacement I noticed dried egg around fuel tank fill inlet.
When it doesn’t start, does it just crank without any attempt to fire whatsoever? Or can you feel it trying to catch?
Others have had damaged wiring to a cam or crank position sensor that didn’t trip a code. Test both of those. Test your coolant temperature sensor. Throwing in a junkyard MAF after all that isn’t a bad idea either.
Really on modern vehicles the triangle becomes a square. Air, fuel, spark and sensors.
Others have had damaged wiring to a cam or crank position sensor that didn’t trip a code. Test both of those. Test your coolant temperature sensor. Throwing in a junkyard MAF after all that isn’t a bad idea either.
Really on modern vehicles the triangle becomes a square. Air, fuel, spark and sensors.
Good points.
- Thread starter
- #29
I haven't tested for a spark during times it doesn't start. It does just crank and crank. Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "catching".
The leaky injectors make a lot of sense to me. They were cleaned but I'm not sure if they tested for leaks.
- Thread starter
- #30
Tank looked really clean when i had the pump out. The filter from the old pump looked discolored, but clear.
One thing that makes me question a leaky injector is that sometimes it starts up just fine and then dies as I'm backing out of the driveway. Then it takes multiple cranks to get it back again. My brain says air getting into the fuel lines, but i'm not sure if that's reasonable.
"Catching" means there's ignition happening but not enough to start the car. You'll feel like if you press the gas you could give it the boost it needs to start. The cranking will jump in speed.
Cranking and cranking without any attempt to catch is like when the immobilizer is not delivering fuel. The cranking speed stays the same.
When it does start, does it start right up, or kind of splutter to life?
This sounds more and more electrical. Check the wiring on the crank and cam position sensors. Those are essential to control ignition timing, the engine will not run without them. The wiring on those sensors has been known to drift into the serpentine belt and get eaten.
Also, I can tell you that fuel leaks won't keep it from running. When I swapped injectors on my Lexus, I was smart and didn't change any of the seals. I started it up, and then I smelled gas. It kept running normally while I looked under the hood, and it was spraying from multiple points on the rail.
- Thread starter
- #34
My serp belt recently broke (9 months ago) and I had it, along with the timing belt/water pump, replaced. I will take a look at that in the morning!
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- Thread starter
- #35
I gave up on replacing my starter when i had everything back together and it was leaking fuel WHILE running. My shop fixed it up, but I had to bring it back because of further injector gasket leaks. No more smell of fuel though. I've inspected it while running many times, since I'm paranoid about gas leaks. I get horrible gas mileage as it is!
- Thread starter
- #36
Also....Thanks to everyone for chiming in! I really appreciate it. Currently jobless and the kids and I play chicken with being on time to school or not in the mornings! 
Haven't been late yet!
Haven't been late yet!
YardPig
SILVER Star
Your wasting your time without checking the fuel pressure during these episodes. Your running in circles guessing.
Invest in a fuel pressure gauge, the hose is long enough to run up to the windshield for a reason. Drive it around under the wiper blade if required. Bring a fire extinguisher for safety, but it's very safe.
Report back with what the gauge says when you have another no start.
Invest in a fuel pressure gauge, the hose is long enough to run up to the windshield for a reason. Drive it around under the wiper blade if required. Bring a fire extinguisher for safety, but it's very safe.
Report back with what the gauge says when you have another no start.
Injectors empty of fuel (leaking) will only cause hard start (long crank). Once running, leaky injectors, is not going to kill the engine. This dying as backing out is different issue.
- Thread starter
- #39
It cranked and didn't start this morning, so i left it without trying any more and got a fuel pressure test kit.
Of course this afternoon when i tried it with the tester, it fired right up.
46 psi while running and startup
Maintained that pressure when off for 5 minutes
I detached the gauge and reattached and it was at 27 psi
I'm leaving the gauge on for a while to see if the pressure goes down.
Of course this afternoon when i tried it with the tester, it fired right up.
46 psi while running and startup
Maintained that pressure when off for 5 minutes
I detached the gauge and reattached and it was at 27 psi
I'm leaving the gauge on for a while to see if the pressure goes down.
