Rainman's Brake Lines

[Rainman]

9/75... That's the same time frame as my project so fitting your truck won't be a problem.

 

[Rainman]

Okay guys. Without being able to shake down a pre-7/70 Cruiser, I'm not sure of all the parts yet. I hope to have that solved sometime soon. I haven't been able to put all the time I need into this but I am proceeding with the idea of producing kits for the FJ40s. If all goes well and I can figure out how to pattern all the 55s for instance that would be great. We shall see.

But here is the final parts chart for the lines I do know of. I'm close to being ready to produce 9/75 to 9/77 kits. I'm still early in the packaging design stage. I want to make sure I have a good way to ship with the least risk of damage. Stay tuned for that. SO, look at this chart and see if it makes sense to you. Those of you who are interested in full or partial kits but aren't needing them any time real soon, let me know if the chart works easily for you. Of course, kits can be ordered simply by telling me the production date of the your 40. Things are progressing as well as I could've hoped so far so I hope to be in biz before too long with expansion coming as fast as I can get practice vehicles.





(old chart has been deleted. Obsolete)

 

[fj401978]

PM sent...

 

[kiwidog]

PM sent...

Hi Rainman,

Please don't take this the wrong way, you may be over thinking the whole brake line project.
From my point of view you should use the tube similar to OEM or the NiCopp line. Don't try and bend them, leave them all straight for shipping then they can be shipped in a tube. The only really long one would be the two that go across the firewall from the MC to the frame connector on the PS. The coils make then very long. You could do a two piece design and have a connector exactly half way then the two piece would be the same length. The bends are easy enough to make by hand or with a small KD bender. If you had instructions to follow on how to bend each piece that would make it real easy. The overall length is the had part to get without straightening the lines out. If you did that once and documented it in a spread sheet for each year period kind of like your current sheet,it would be a great resource.
As far as the necked down fitting v's the full thread fitting, one could make a case for either one sealing better because of the taper being wide or narrow. The narrow taper probably puts more force on part of the flare to seal better on the fitting. It doesn't need full contact across the whole flare seat just full contact around the complete diameter.
Haven't really thought about about the shoulder fitting and the threads in the caliper or the MC not going all the way down to the flare seat. If they didn't the tube would be able to be turned with the nut fully tighten because you would have thread bind before the nut seated the tube on the flare seat.
I would stay away from stainless unless it is a show vehicle or the like.
If you had the lengths of each tube figured out you could probably find some tube manufacturer to make then for you.Then you just stock them and sell them. The other thing to think about is the liability you may take on if some one screws up and your parts are used. Now i'm probably over thinking things.
I commend you for taking a project on like this.

Thanks jb

 

[Rainman]

Hi Rainman,

Please don't take this the wrong way, you may be over thinking the whole brake line project.
From my point of view you should use the tube similar to OEM or the NiCopp line. Don't try and bend them, leave them all straight for shipping then they can be shipped in a tube. The only really long one would be the two that go across the firewall from the MC to the frame connector on the PS. The coils make then very long. You could do a two piece design and have a connector exactly half way then the two piece would be the same length. The bends are easy enough to make by hand or with a small KD bender. If you had instructions to follow on how to bend each piece that would make it real easy. The overall length is the had part to get without straightening the lines out. If you did that once and documented it in a spread sheet for each year period kind of like your current sheet,it would be a great resource.
As far as the necked down fitting v's the full thread fitting, one could make a case for either one sealing better because of the taper being wide or narrow. The narrow taper probably puts more force on part of the flare to seal better on the fitting. It doesn't need full contact across the whole flare seat just full contact around the complete diameter.
Haven't really thought about about the shoulder fitting and the threads in the caliper or the MC not going all the way down to the flare seat. If they didn't the tube would be able to be turned with the nut fully tighten because you would have thread bind before the nut seated the tube on the flare seat.
I would stay away from stainless unless it is a show vehicle or the like.
If you had the lengths of each tube figured out you could probably find some tube manufacturer to make then for you.Then you just stock them and sell them. The other thing to think about is the liability you may take on if some one screws up and your parts are used. Now i'm probably over thinking things.
I commend you for taking a project on like this.

Thanks jb

I really appreciate your input but here's my take on your comments:

I'm researching and making plans to create these lines because I've found that SOR and Classic Tube have lines that aren't install ready as advertised. I also feel that the people who are looking for replacement lines want and may need the lines ready to install for a number of reasons. Maybe they don't have time to bend up the lines or don't know how. Why would I send them lines they can buy at O'Reilly's or NAPA? You can get straight lines with fittings any length you want. Sending them straight lines sort of defeats the purpose. Doesn't it?

The issue between the two styles of nuts are answered purely by what hole they go in. An example is: A shouldered nut in the rear drum only threads about two threads. That's not enough to allow the kind of pressure brake lines need to seal. If you use a fully threaded nut in a deep hole as in the MC, you may bottom out at the nut before you even get to the cone. That would allow 0 pressure. The different holes need different nuts. It's easy to tell which one is which when the hole is empty.

You're right. I'm staying away from stainless steel as it's just two stinking hard. But if someone wants it and is willing to pay for more expensive material and more time I'm okay with that too.

If I have some other company bend my lines for me, how will I make any money? My plan is to price my kits for the same or lower as the other kits available but hopefully mine will fit better. I have suggested that I could put a union near 90* the bend of the firewall ones so I won't have to bend "fully bent" lies for packaging. One guy want's his fully bent but folded. That's fine as he knows he will be responsible for straightening the tubing himself.

And yes, I am thinking about this too hard. I'm doing that so I make sure I cover all the bases before I throw money into a business that may or may not work. I was never a boy Scout but I am "being prepared."

 

[kiwidog]

My thinking on leaving the line straight was that anyone who is in to replacing on or more lines on a 40 is generally going to have enough mechanical aptitude to do the bending especially with a good set of instructions. The difference between your lines and Napa or Auto Zone lines is that you are Cruiser guy and you have specific lengths for the 40 series. I made up the short connecting line for the rear brake cylinders and the local Napa store had 12" and 20" lines and it turns out the line is maybe 17 1/2". It would have been real easy if you knew the exact length and could make the bends for each end rather than working from one side and finding it was too long.
My thinking on have some company make the lines that you could buy them right and then mark them up enough that they would be priced right for us Cruiser guys and you would make your money mostly from your intellectual talent rather than your sweat making the lines yourself.
And example of that is Coolerman with his electrical fittings, ( he does make some kits) he doesn't make them but rather knows where to source them so we are more than happy to pay his price because it is an easy transaction.

I agree you want to think about this hard however that is not the same as over thinking the problem.

Thanks jb

 

[Vae Victus]

KiwiDog,
I will say I think there's a market for making lines. I'm doing my rebuild and have the aptitude, the parts, and the tools, but when Rainman said he'd make them for me, I knew he'd do a better job than I could. In my case, I'm willing to have someone else do some of the work on my cruiser, but just a little. I'm doing this for the experience and challenge. Others have varying desire to do it themselves or have others do them with reasons ranging from keeping cost down, doing it better than SOR can do it, needing something fast, wanting the experience, or just needing something that works.

The only question is - how many folks will need (want?) this?

I personally think that there will be a consistent market for these, and given that there are folks rebuilding trucks from the mid 1960's all the way up to now, across a bunch of different models, and have been doing so since they came out, tells me that in 10 years, there will still be folks doing this, and a few of those folks will want better looking and more carefully made (i.e. More carefully researched, sourced, bent/cut/crimped, packaged, etc) than the crap available right now from anyone else.

Rainman is a technical illustrator. He thinks in 3D like a Frenchman thinks in French. Bending these seems like second nature to him. I watched him do it in his barn last week. I've tried my hand at it, and the results were not pretty - and I do want pretty on my truck. There, I said it.

This is why I like the community here - people like Kiwi giving honest feedback and being helpful.

 

[Rainman]

Survey time!

Chime in on what your truck has. Here's a shot of the brake line fitting on the front diff of an FJ40. Notice that the fitting is mounted under the tab welded to the housing. On my build up truck the fitting is mounted on top of the bracket. Which is correct from the factory? Can you guys check yours and post what your truck has? Please? This is based on a '77ish 40. I'm sure other years may not have the same setup. This falls under the "very important info for me" category.

Thanks in advance.

 

[2thdoc]

Survey time!

Chime in on what your truck has. Here's a shot of the brake line fitting on the front diff of an FJ40. Notice that the fitting is mounted under the tab welded to the housing. On my build up truck the fitting is mounted on top of the bracket. Which is correct from the factory? Can you guys check yours and post what your truck has? Please? This is based on a '77ish 40. I'm sure other years may not have the same setup. This falls under the "very important info for me" category.

Thanks in advance.View attachment 883258

Here's mine. 9/75 build date

 

[Rainman]

Just what I thought. The PO Bozo on my truck mounted it upside down. No problem. I'm on it. This is just another step in making sure my lines will fit an FJ40 that hasn't had the brake system changed any. The only change will be the path the lines take. For instance... Look at the picture above this and see that the brake line is in the way of taking out the diff. Either pry the line upward or end up bleeding the entire brake system.

Thanks Doc.

 

[Rainman]

UPDATE:

I have been attempting due diligence for this venture with product design, purchasing and designing my tooling, history for parts research, and supplier research. Everything is moving along nicely other than one piece of the pie. After talking to one supplier who just happens to be a Cruiser fan and another gentleman who owns a ’69 FJ40, I found out that the Cruisers up until 7/70 (apparently) had 9mm nuts on the brake lines. That creates two problems. The first and most important is that because of the thin walls of a skinny 9mm, the nuts all over time crack. That’s a BIG problem. With pressures around 2000 pounds in brake systems, having cracks in the system is not good. So at this time I will not be supplying kits or individual parts for the early Cruisers. I will how ever spend time researching manufacturing “Kryptonite” 9mm nuts for the Cruiser in the future. I do have a metalurjist that can design and a source that can produce these but it will take time and pressure testing. I don’t have the time or cash for that right now. So, @motovate, I’m sorry to say I won’t be able to supply you with ‘66 parts any time soon. I promise that when I find a replacement and improvement for the early lines I will let everyone know.

That leaves this statement:
I will be only supplying replacement FJ40 brake lines from 7/70 and up until further notice.

 

[Rainman]

I wish I didn't have to do this but...






(old chart has been deleted. Obsolete)

 

[motovate]

You are correct that the older ones used 9mm connectors - that won't be a problem for me since I am putting in complete correct 1976 FJ 55 running gear that uses the 10mm connections and the rear disc conversion uses 10 mm also. It is just going into a 1966 body/frame - my plan always was to convert everything over to the 10mm size including the Brake master cyl and the clutch master/slave probably using the junctions, etc from the FJ55 or later model FJ 40's . I think that what ever you come up with on the 76 FJ 40 will work but like I say it's a work in progress and I'm moving along like a herd of turtles!!

Keep on keepin on - it looks like a good program.

LBM

UPDATE:

I have been attempting due diligence for this venture with product design, purchasing and designing my tooling, history for parts research, and supplier research. Everything is moving along nicely other than one piece of the pie. After talking to one supplier who just happens to be a Cruiser fan and another gentleman who owns a ’69 FJ40, I found out that the Cruisers up until 7/70 (apparently) had 9mm nut on the brake lines. That creates two problems. The first and most important is that because of the thin walls of a skinny 9mm, the nuts all over time crack. That’s a BIG problem. With pressures around 2000 pounds in brake systems, having cracks in the system is not good. So at this time I will not be supplying kits or individual parts for the early Cruisers. I will how ever spend time researching manufacturing “Kryptonite” 9mm nuts for the Cruiser in the future. I do have a metalurjist that can design and a source that can produce these but it will take time and pressure testing. I don’t have the time or cash for that right now. So, @motovate, I’m sorry to say I won’t be able to supply you with ‘66 parts any time soon. I promise that when I find a replacement and improvement for the early lines I will let everyone know.

That leaves this statement:
I will be only supplying replacement FJ40 brake lines from 7/70 and up until further notice.

 

[Rainman]

Day by day I get closer and find new items that create multiple unexpected options for us on the Cruisers. I just received the new brake master for my project. It's a CCOT version. Looks good. Looks beefy. Has two large reservoirs. Oddly enough, the brake line entries are on the bottom. Not only that but they take bubble flares. No note. No card. No warning. I'll bet somewhere someone put's their same old double flared line in and can figure out why it's leaking. Since I had to create a master pattern for stock AND this one, I'll be offering firewall lines to accommodate this replacement. I've ordered nut's and more line. I have a new line straightener. Plus I've got a replacement bender on the way. I've begun setting up a brake line shop on a room downstairs and should be up and running in the next couple of weeks. Of course that's only for the 9/75 to 9/77 40's right now but I hope that changes very soon.

 

[Rainman]

You are correct that the older ones used 9mm connectors - that won't be a problem for me since I am putting in complete correct 1976 FJ 55 running gear that uses the 10mm connections and the rear disc conversion uses 10 mm also. It is just going into a 1966 body/frame - my plan always was to convert everything over to the 10mm size including the Brake master cyl and the clutch master/slave probably using the junctions, etc from the FJ55 or later model FJ 40's . I think that what ever you come up with on the 76 FJ 40 will work but like I say it's a work in progress and I'm moving along like a herd of turtles!!

Keep on keepin on - it looks like a good program.

LBM

LBM,

In the near future, we will need to talk about your rig and find out what's different with your setup. I'm up for the challenge but we'll also have to talk about what extra time it will take me. It's still early so I'll be easy.

 

[Rainman]

The shop is almost ready! Setting up and mounting all the tools for the job and would've finished it today but ran out of battery for my drill. Only one last piece I want to create is the bending station. Line straightening tool is mounted, and flaring will be ready tomorrow. I may just be creating the first kits next week.

 

[Rainman]

Noting up front that this is my opinion... I'd like to try and come to a solution with the "stepped" end of the brake line nuts vs the "full threaded" end. I found out that "stepped" is the correct term. I took the time to go around the truck and investigate the thread count and depth of all the points the the hard lines hook up to. I had originally thought there was a big difference in the master cylinder and hard fittings on the axles and frame and the rear drums. Turns out that there is very little difference. At least on my 5/77 FJ40. I believe that not only having a good mating surface between the nut and the flare is important but the depth of threads that the nut manages is also very important. I would rather have more threads hanging on against the pressure than fewer. And that's just what I found in the master cylinder. Note the pictures. Both nuts fit the hole. Both nuts secured the line. Both made a good seal. But the stepped nut had only about half the thread contact that the fully threaded nut did. You can see this by the signature of old fluid on the threads. I was surprised that the master accepted the full threaded nut. so even though some of you noted that you wanted OEM stepped nuts, and I will honor that in any order for brake line kits, my conclusion until I find evidence otherwise on another truck, I will be using all fully threaded nuts on the truck I'n building.

I'm glad I know a guy that can custom make those for me...

 

[fj401978]

Are you sure about connecting on the bottom of the M/C? I have a CCOT M/C with the two big cups, too, and it connects as the original...brake lines on the side, and the two pressure switches on the bottom.
As far as stepped or non stepped, every line I have taken off of my 12/77 have been stepped. As I had posted earlier, I would'nt 'not' buy the lines if you only offered full threads, but if you are offering a choice, I would prefer stepped. I DO appreciate your investment of time and money to do this!
Thanks,
Skip

 

[Rainman]

AHhAahaha... Busted. I meant on the side. Yep two big cups but not connected on the top like MY MC is. As shown in the pics above. I've edited the post for correction. Sounds like I will have to find out yet another piece of information when filling orders. Geeze Toyota, make up your mind!

I will carry both types of nuts for the job as I said. You wanna the stepped nuts? You gotta the stepped nuts.

 

[Rainman]

Boy oh boy do I like this flare tool! And I'm loving' the new setup in the basement. Almost set up everything I want. A self designed bending buck is in the works for the major and most common diameter bends. And as soon as I can get some help I'll put my old office desk down there but it weighs a ton. That'll come.

Here are two shots of the quality of the flares I can get with this tool and my re-design of the wheel cylinder (or rear drum loops as I call them) in the NiCopp tubing with stepped nuts.

The rear line is designed to sit closer to the axle and be less likely to grab small sticks and trash. It also uses a little less tubing. It's radius is about an inch away from the axle housing.