Project Carbon Control!

[alkaline747trio]

Sounds good, I'll have to give it a try.

Now, onto the question of whether or not 2 of these oil catch cans on on PCV on the Intake Manifold (the other part of the PCV system) would be better than just one on the PVC?

 

[alaskacruiser]

alkaline- I thought the 2 catch cans were for turbo applications only?

 

[alkaline747trio]

That's why I'm asking, I was curious if one could benefit from dual catch cans, espically on my 3FE.

 

[turbocruiser]

So what you're saying is that the oil that is bypassing the rings and making it back to the pan is somehow less contaminated?

It was just a thought> Would have saved the constant draining of whatever separator is installed.

How is the oil bypassing the rings and getting back to the pans? If it bypasses the rings and gets into the combustion chamber it is going to go through the exhaust, EGR, etc., if it goes through the EGR then I suppose some can get going towards the pan eventually but the point is to minimize as much as possible.

I'm not trying to criticize the thought, just saying that stuff, IMHO, is not worth returning to the pan, besides, its not just the oil its the soot and stuff that goes with it. JMHO, remember I've got a good case of OCD and I hear dead hydrocarbons!

 

[alkaline747trio]

Well that's great and all, but what's your take on the dual catchers?

 

[turbocruiser]

Well that's great and all, but what's your take on the dual catchers?

All I know is I needed the two catch cans: one for the turbo side and one for the PCV side; the turbo pulls so much extra air from the valve cover (which surprises me considering the three inch intake hoses feeding it fresh air!!!) and along with it all the oil and vapor and stuff, not to mention heat, that without the catch can for the turbo my intake and my intercooler would get all gummed up. Dont know how important it is for the NA vehicles but typically the PCV side is all thats addressed for NA vehicles AFAIK. HTH.

 

[RavenTai]

couple notes, if everything is working properly on a naturally aspirated engine you should only need one catch can, Turbo needs two because his PCV side stops working when manifold pressure goes above atmospheric, the gasses wind up going out the inlet instead.

Do not put the oil caught in the back into the engine, it will prevent the engine from expelling water.

Yes it will boil off but it then it will just get caught in the PCV trap again especially in colder weather,

And as said above the pcv oil has a higher concentration of fuel and soot,

I used a air compressor filter, had no problems with heat, main problem was that it filled up to quickly and was a pain to drain I had to take it apart every time, wound up not getting to it in time (weekly) and the stuff wound up in the intake anyway so I took it off.

 

[Dusty]

more data points
I put a "catch can" on both sides of my turbo. im using a couple oil/water seperators designed for an air compresor as others have done. the blue one is to the intake manifold vacume. the other one goes preturbo and is used to catch the oil under boost. the pics represent the ammount of oil i have collected after 175 miles. there is about 2ml of oil in the bottom of the blue one (constant vacume) and there is only a fraction of a ml in the pre turbo one (which is correct as this one only sees oil vapor under boost). At this rate the blue filter will fill up fast and I will need a larger can. I baught a cheep ebay job but I will need to find a way to baffle it.

Ok turbo I'm a believer

 

[Dusty]

According to my small study my motor is sucking 1ml of oil down the intake every 100miles. so with 140,000 miles on my truck it has ingested 1.4 liters of oil through the intake. is it any wonder there is so much carbon build up in the intake manifold and heads?

 

[IdahoDoug]

Not to throw a monkey wrench into what has become a fascinating study, but have you all considered that Toyota has designed a few engines and that the small amounts of oil ingested are comprehended for lube? In other words, the valve guides may have been designed with this federally mandated pollution control in mind, and the airborne oil mist was calculated into the choice of materials and lifespan?

By way of example, the rings allow a certain amount of oil to remain on the cylinder walls to prevent wear of the rings and wall. Making the tolerances tighter is possible, but would result in increased wear or require different materials. So, a bit of ring-oriented oil consumption is part of every engine's design.

I have no feelings or data either way on the top end oil, but thought I'd bring it up.

DougM

 

[turbocruiser]

Not to throw a monkey wrench into what has become a fascinating study, but have you all considered that Toyota has designed a few engines and that the small amounts of oil ingested are comprehended for lube? In other words, the valve guides may have been designed with this federally mandated pollution control in mind, and the airborne oil mist was calculated into the choice of materials and lifespan?

By way of example, the rings allow a certain amount of oil to remain on the cylinder walls to prevent wear of the rings and wall. Making the tolerances tighter is possible, but would result in increased wear or require different materials. So, a bit of ring-oriented oil consumption is part of every engine's design.

I have no feelings or data either way on the top end oil, but thought I'd bring it up.

DougM

Doug I dont think the two analogies are appropriate; the frictional forces of moving mechanical pieces in the cylinder prolly do benefit from barely loose tolerances but the crap in the intake can do no good as far as I'm concerned. Keep in mind most everything from vintage vehicles to modern racing machines have no mechanism to recirculate this crap and that this is much more an environmental effort which compromises much on our machines. Come on you worry about every other example of less than ideal, why cantcha just jump on this wagon with us?!?

 

[IdahoDoug]

Turbo,

I hear you on some levels, but do you follow that oil misted air is flowing over the valve seats, and the part of the valve stem that protrudes with it? Just a thought. I've looked at my own engines and can see the crud this system deposits, but it's in the back of my mind that there's some valve stem lubrication at the stem seals/seat area going on. Dunno. Consider briefly that 2 cycle engines very lives depend upon a tiny amount of oil in the intake to properly lubricate them. Get the 30:1 or whatever ratio wrong on your snowblower or string trimmer and it will not run correctly.

DougM

 

[RavenTai]

The valve stem guides and seals are lubricated from above, there is oil flowing out of the cam shaft journals and there are castings in the head that cause this oil to puddle around the buckets.

The valve seats should not need lube and carbon deposits here could cause problems in the valve seat area.

 

[Dusty]

I would love to see the inside of turbo's engine in 100,000 miles with his new catch cans. I wonder if it will look any different

I dont know what to think of engine lubrication taking place with the oil vapor. If someone were to show me an enginering report to that affect in relation to any modern domestic engine I might buy it. However, if all that crud were a real issue you would think toyota and other manufacturers would implement their own catch cans. However However, most manufactureres are expecting you to ditch your car at a 100k anyway.

 

[turbocruiser]

As an update...

After 1800 miles with the twin catch cans...

I drained almost three tablespoons of the oily crap out of the PCV side catch can,

and,

I drained almost nothing out of the TURBO side catch can???


While I am absolutely pleased to purge the crap from the PCV side I was expecting much more from the TURBO side and now I am wondering about why I have not had those results. It could be that by me seeing the stuff in the turbo air lines and intercooler air lines I assumed that the turbo side produced much more oil vapor. Looks like I was wrong, still, if three tablespoons of oil can collect into the upper and lower intake plenums, the head, the valves, etc every 1800 miles, I just made my engine much much much cleaner!!! So, overall I'm happy but, I'm perplexed. Any thoughts on why the TURBO side tends to collect less than the PCV side? Thanks.

 

[Dusty]

turbo
As I posted before I am seeing about 1ml per 100 miles on the pcv side of my catch can. I have only collected about 2 ml in over 700 miles in the turbo side.

I believe the turbo line (pre turbo) is usually seeing a vacume towards the motor (not towards the intake) as this line is connected to the valve cover which is usually seeing a vacume pulling to the throttle body via the pcv line.
so the only time vapors are blowing to the turbo side catch can is when the truck is under boost and thus the pcv line is closed via its one way valve-forcing positive crank pressure to the turbo side line and its catch can. because the turbod truck sees reletively infrequent boosting there is little vapor to catch on the turbo side

 

[turbocruiser]

turbo
As I posted before I am seeing about 1ml per 100 miles on the pcv side of my catch can. I have only collected about 2 ml in over 700 miles in the turbo side.

I believe the turbo line (pre turbo) is usually seeing a vacume towards the motor (not towards the intake) as this line is connected to the valve cover which is usually seeing a vacume pulling to the throttle body via the pcv line.
so the only time vapors are blowing to the turbo side catch can is when the truck is under boost and thus the pcv line is closed via its one way valve-forcing positive crank pressure to the turbo side line and its catch can. because the turbod truck sees reletively infrequent boosting there is little vapor to catch on the turbo side

Dusty, I'm thinking that you are absolutely correct; due to the fact that the compressor side of the turbo was often oily and so were those wonderful hoses to and from the intercooler, I assumed that was where most of our oily mess was coming from; the fact that everything in the intakes was much more of a dirty dry residue made me think that much less mess was coming from the PCV. After actually observing our results I am absolutely amazed how much crap the PCV system throws through the engine and I can completely see how anything at all out there offering to clean the intakes is complete crap; the only way to keep them clean is to keep them contaminant free. Anyways, as is often the outcome when using the scientific method, my original hypothesis was wrong however I learned lots in the experiment and am still super happy about the results. Thanks for all the awesome input here.

 

[Dusty]

I just wish I would have caught onto the concept when I baught my truck 40,000 miles ago. thanks for convincing me Turbo.

 

[NaterGator]

Bump.

Turbo, is still working as expected? Have you looked past your TB into your plenums and seen if this made any difference?

-----Nate

 

[turbocruiser]

Bump.

Turbo, is still working as expected? Have you looked past your TB into your plenums and seen if this made any difference?

-----Nate

Ohh yes, still working better than I ever expected - I just posted on another thread that after 8K (now almost 10.5K) things are still super clean inside the TB and past it into intake plenums. Of course the EGR still puts some "dust" in there but without the oily output from the PCV it seems it stays really clean. On the turbo side the tubes are perfectly clean. My only unexpected outcome ( as noted above IIRC ) is that the PCV side produces much more oil than the turbo side. Anyways, yes, still working super well, I'm very pleased. HTH.