joseywales
Renaissance Redneck
Stay offa my lawn!Wait until we start getting the millennials and Genzs around here.. Although they are probably somewhere in TikTok or whatever the latest squirrel-on-drugs-attention-span app is.
Price Negotiation
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I’m part of the old crew in this place , also from California. One thing I’ve learned here is keep your politics to yourself, no one cares what you think.
I’m getting ready to pick up a LC, either a 2019/2020 miss my old 80. Been hanging with a 4Runner for a few years, but I belong in a Land Cruiser. The new 250s intrigue me, but can’t seem to get over the 4cl, twin turbo setup.
I’m getting ready to pick up a LC, either a 2019/2020 miss my old 80. Been hanging with a 4Runner for a few years, but I belong in a Land Cruiser. The new 250s intrigue me, but can’t seem to get over the 4cl, twin turbo setup.
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joseywales
Renaissance Redneck
If I could lease a new 200, I’d be all over it. But I can’t, so here we are. It’s a new world disorder!
Fear mongering click bait. YouTube is filled with it.
Paradigm shift for Toyota / Lexus due to many factors that mostly impact all other automakers too, but doesn't mean they're failing.
Toyota Motor North America Reports 2024 U.S. Sales Results - Toyota USA Newsroom
PLANO, Texas (Jan. 3, 2025) – Toyota Motor North America (TMNA) today reported year-end 2024 U.S. sales of 2,332,623 vehicles, an increase of 3.7 percent on a volume basis and an increase of 3.1 percent on a daily selling rate (DSR) basis compared to 2023.
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True. Some of these youtubers make me sick.Fear mongering click bait. YouTube is filled with it.
Paradigm shift for Toyota / Lexus due to many factors that mostly impact all other automakers too, but doesn't mean they're failing.
Toyota Motor North America Reports 2024 U.S. Sales Results - Toyota USA Newsroom
PLANO, Texas (Jan. 3, 2025) – Toyota Motor North America (TMNA) today reported year-end 2024 U.S. sales of 2,332,623 vehicles, an increase of 3.7 percent on a volume basis and an increase of 3.1 percent on a daily selling rate (DSR) basis compared to 2023.pressroom.toyota.com
I have, at different times, owned Toyota stock (TM) and still track it as one of the stocks I’m interested in. I also have owned Ford (F) historically when I was seeking increased dividend yield.
Putting a 40-year view of both next to each other it is apparent the investment community thinks Toyota is doing OK.
Shocking how much better total return (~9x greater) is over that period versus Ford.
I own neither at this time. If TM plummets I’ll be giving it a look. I’m done with Ford stock and their one trick (F-Series) pony from an investment perspective.
Putting a 40-year view of both next to each other it is apparent the investment community thinks Toyota is doing OK.
Shocking how much better total return (~9x greater) is over that period versus Ford.
I own neither at this time. If TM plummets I’ll be giving it a look. I’m done with Ford stock and their one trick (F-Series) pony from an investment perspective.
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I can't say that the video scares me or makes me sick.
Are there Toyota trucks on the lot not selling due to the ridiculous MSRP? Yes. Is the same inventory situation exacerbated by greedy markups? 100% Yes. Is Toyota's overall quality down? Yes. Is Toyota they same company that they were 20 or even 10 years ago? No.
Most of the information in the video is true. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean it isn't reality. I don't like it either. I was in communication/negotiations with dozens of dealerships continuously for about 3 years. I ended up buying a 460 over a 4runner, I got twice the bang for the same buck.
If what the dealer say is true, then the pillars of TPS have crumbled. The word "allotment" shouldn't even be uttered in the same sentence as Toyota.
Yep. Don't disagree with you. What you describe is the paradigm shift I refer to.
I liken what's occurring regulatory wise and structurally to the shift we saw in the early/mid 70's from yacht length guzzlers to the smaller more economy based designs forced by the fuel crisis. Everyone wrung their hands when they saw what Ford did to the Mustang, as a result. Rightfully so, on some levels, too.
Yes, it feels like a drop in quality, but also, feels just as much (and hopefully proves to even more in the future) like a refinement of over-designed aspects of cars and interiors too. My 200 feels superfluously overdone on many levels and the refinements and streamlining of my GX seem as much about efficiency in design as any sort of lessening. I'd also argue that it's not just Toyota / Lexus but a challenge every brand is dealing with. If you think a Jeep Liberty is getting more quality while Toyota is addressing the changing nature of the industry, that's probably not a wise move. The pyramid of auto maker quality will remain the same.
However........doesn't change the clickbait nature of that video. Look at his channel, and it's all negativity and doom + gloom.
I drive by 3 Toyota / Lexus dealers every day, and I don't see the type of inventory he claims at any of them. Whereas I can't drive across town without seeing Ford and Jeep dealers with what looks like hundreds of Broncos and Wranglers in stock and with major price cuts.
joseywales
Renaissance Redneck
100% agree that youtube is chock full of clickbait.
However, the video linked above actually has some true points. The biggest dealer near me (Spokane Wa) had when I was there in mid December, over 50 Tacomas and a bunch of Tundras (I didn’t count them) as well as two unsold Land Cruisers. Both were 1958s. I sat in a 1958 with a young salesman who was quite candid when I commented on all the Tacomas. He said “we can’t give them away”. I’m paraphrasing of course, but he said they just aren’t selling. I told him the rear seat area was too small in our 2020 DC Tacoma, and he told me the current generation is even a bit smaller! As for the Tundra, I’m only buying a full-size truck to tow or haul, and I’m NOT buying a V6 for that application. Especially not one with bearing failure recalls.
So yes, Toyota is charging too much, for too little truck. If I were shopping for a mini truck right now, I’d be looking at a GMC with the top level offroad package and the diesel. Not saying I’d buy it, but I’ve seen a couple of those done up a bit and they look damn good. At this point, my ‘97 Tacoma with 597,000 on it is still filling the mini truck roll just fine.
I think that's my point. Yes, MSRP's are high compared to what we have been used to, but I don't blame the truck or the maker for that, as much as I blame the impacts of the paradigm shift and the time it takes for the market to accept and adjust to that shift.
For example, back in the day if you had a nice 71-73 Mustang, which is even sometimes called 'the big beast' and walked into a dealer in 1974 and saw the newly designed miniature 'Charlie's Angels mobile', I guarantee the enthusiasts were outraged and that buyer type walked away.
Now, unfortunately, that's a tough example because the redesign opened the car up to an entirely different buyer type, as it moved from muscle car to middle of the road two door, even though it increased in price from 73 by to 74 by around 7-10% and as a result the sales numbers doubles from 73 to 74, but you get my point, haha.
Just gonna be frank, but the new Toyota truck offerings are ugly, expensive, seemingly unreliable, and have a half-baked feel in terms of design and execution. There are not many reasons to buy them and, especially if they don't offer a reliability benefit over a domestic truck. Toyota had plenty of time between model updates to get the trucks perfect in terms of styling and reliability, yet failed (hence my half-baked comment).
joseywales
Renaissance Redneck
I was politely tiptoeing around this, and you nailed it. The new Trucks are ugly and uninspired. Add overpriced to the mix and it’s why there are so many sitting unsold.
I do think the 250 is a good overall vehicle. The 1958 may be a bit spartan for the money, but I have always said my two 1984 BJ60s were my all time favorite vehicles. The 3B diesel runs on the smell of an oily rag, they were “comfortable”, incredibly capable, and looked amazing. Especially after I added a bit of lift and skinny 33s. (It looked exactly like the one below, but in the blue and with appropriate era BFG MTs and round headlights). I see the 1958 as the modern version of that car, and I, for one, am willing to pay a little extra for that.
On paper i like both the LC250 (as a Toyota hybrid owner) and the GX550. The expensive/reliability asterisk still applies, given the engine and trans failures, but they don't seem as half-baked from an overall design perspective as the trucks are. Perhaps it's a difference between Toyota's US and Japanese design teams.
If I were to buy a new truck today it would be a F-150 with the 5.0 V8. If it wasn't new, it would be a 2021 or older Tundra, MPGs be damned.
I feel the same way. The new Tundra for me was the biggest let down. It really feels like a half effort. It's a laundry list of big obvious misses across the board. I really wanted it to be great and I wanted to buy one. I would love to upgrade from my 5.7 Tundra, but I think I'd buy an F250 again - and I still have PSTSD (Power Stroke Traumatic Stress Disorder) from my last one. ugh.
LC250 is one that I think looks really good. I like the body design and tall greenhouse. For me it's an evolutionary update to the 5th gen 4R. But the marketing is so confused. Market price on the 1958 seems to have settled around $54-56k. But a SR5 4Runner is going to be $44k msrp and probably see market pricing around $42k. Toyota just kneecapped the 4R with the stupid high belt line and shrinking cabin. It's an materially worse body and interior (IMO) on a new chassis (that is probably better). Toyota could have just put the new powertrain and chassis under the old 4Runner and it would have literally been a better package.
F250 with the 7.3/6.8 gas engine seems good on paper. For a HD truck, I'd likely go that route or a 6.6 GM, but lean Ford due to overall crappy GM reliability.
But, the modern SD F250 is still a huge, ugly truck. I had a 2022 PSD as a rental - tons of torque, but I didn't enjoy driving the truck very much, and spent half an hour screwing with a ghost water separator code that required disconnecting the battery. Huge rats nest under the hood of that rig; I'd never want to own one or work on one. Total departure from the 1997 F250 with a 460/automatic I drove for a summer job back in the aughts. Those were super-reliable, reasonably sized trucks with a ton of capability.
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I drove my brother's truck last week. It's a 2024 PSD Lariat Trim and I was really impressed with how quiet it was on the highway for a diesel. The 6.7 has come a long way in terms of refinement. And it gets around 25% better mpg than my tundra with twice the power. Probably double the mpg towing. Man if Toyota would sell a 4 or 5 ish liter inline 6 turbo diesel Tundra I'd pay all the money for it. But if you read through the diesel truck forums on "how many miles have you got" type threads - it seems to be unusual for even the newest PSDs to make it to 100k miles without some component failures, whether it be injection pumps, DEF system components, etc. Seems like 200k is the general assumed useful life. A 200k mile 5.7 is mostly a matter of just avoiding a collision that totals it for 20-30 years. The difference is pretty stark. I'd bet you could get a 5.7 to 200k miles with as little as maybe 8 oil changes if you really wanted to roll the dice.
Possibly Toyota will build a 4th gen Tundra and fix the big issues with the current gen and I can hold out until then.
Or - ideally Toyota decides to update the LC250 to differentiate it by offering with a 2GR in front of a PHEV hybrid and a non-hybrid turbo6. Then make the 4Runner either the hybrid or non hybrid turbo 4. Easily differentiates the two. Justifies the pricing structure. the PHEV n/a v6 would smooth effortless power and sit at the top of the lineup. The Turbo6 would be the base model with exceptional overland potential and great daily driver qualities. Maybe even de-tune it to 325hp or something to separate from the GX.
It's not just the PSD. The Cummins and Duramax also have issues. It's the nature of the beast with modern diesels. They need to be rube goldberg machines to be emissions compliant. Pre-2007.5s are the only ones really worth owning for personal use, unless you have a business and drive enough miles to justify the fuel savings, and can trade the truck in on a new one every few years as a tax writeoff. Hate to say it, but a light-duty diesel would be the same way. There is a reason why Japanese automakers have diesels but don't sell them here (with the sole exception of the ill-fated Mazda diesel).
I specially got a small, 24.4-hp diesel in my tractor for it to be Tier 4-exempt, so it completely lacks emissions controls and the engine is 100% mechanical. Being a Japanese-built Yanmar engine, it should last the rest of my life and keep going as someone else's tractor after that. It's my first diesel and I love how I can just idle up the hills on my property with a full bucket of gravel in the front and ballast in the back and the engine doesn't even bog, and how I can go months between needing to fill up the tank. Their low-end torque and fuel efficiency is a real thing.
I specially got a small, 24.4-hp diesel in my tractor for it to be Tier 4-exempt, so it completely lacks emissions controls and the engine is 100% mechanical. Being a Japanese-built Yanmar engine, it should last the rest of my life and keep going as someone else's tractor after that. It's my first diesel and I love how I can just idle up the hills on my property with a full bucket of gravel in the front and ballast in the back and the engine doesn't even bog, and how I can go months between needing to fill up the tank. Their low-end torque and fuel efficiency is a real thing.
joseywales
Renaissance Redneck
Truly, they should be putting the 13BT into the 250s!
The F33A diesel comes in a configuration that should be USA EPA compliant (has an EGR system and a DPF system). Not sure the exact emissions levels, but it has the same systems in generally the same configuration and design as the domestic diesels. Not sure how reliable it has been though. It's an oddball design with a 90* v6 and twin balance shafts. But everything is pretty easy to access on top of the engine.
I think the real core requirement for making a proper modern diesel is serviceability. A hot-V like the F33A is one way to do it. But I'd MUCH rather have it just be an I6 so everything is accessible on the side. Easy access to the EGR cooler, fuel rails, turbo, and injectors would make a modern diesel worth owning. Having to pull the cab or spend 10 hours of labor to clean an EGR cooler are dealbreakers for me.
I'd rather have a PHEV with a gasser. Rumor has it Ford's next gen F250 will have a PHEV or hybrid with the 5.0 combined that may be legitimately competitive with the PSD for towing.
I think the real core requirement for making a proper modern diesel is serviceability. A hot-V like the F33A is one way to do it. But I'd MUCH rather have it just be an I6 so everything is accessible on the side. Easy access to the EGR cooler, fuel rails, turbo, and injectors would make a modern diesel worth owning. Having to pull the cab or spend 10 hours of labor to clean an EGR cooler are dealbreakers for me.
I'd rather have a PHEV with a gasser. Rumor has it Ford's next gen F250 will have a PHEV or hybrid with the 5.0 combined that may be legitimately competitive with the PSD for towing.
