There goes that allotment word again. Toyota produces to the pace of sales, it's a pull system, allotments are a lie!!!!
Price Negotiation (2 Viewers)
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I watched a few of the 6th Gen videos today and whole heartedly agree that the TRD OR/ORP trim is the sweet spot in the lineup again. It also happens to be the best looking IMO. No fake hood scoop, no wild color choices in the interior, and can be had without the hybrid. Priced in the mid to upper $50’s seems very reasonable for what it is.Despite the fugly styling, this article seems to make the base, non-hybrid TRD Off-Road 4Runner look rather appealing and a lot cheaper than a LC250.
I Drove The New Toyota 4Runner. Here's How It Compares To The Land Cruiser - The Autopian
When the Toyota 4Runner debuted in April, many Toyota fans were confused. The brand had recently revealed a new Land Cruiser, which, unlike its predecessor (which was built on its own special platform) now shared the “TNGA-F” bones with its stablemates the Tacoma, Sequoia, and Tundra. So when...www.theautopian.com
I vastly prefer the looks of the LC250 but it's hard to justify the price when so much of the drivetrain is shared between the two vehicles.
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No full time 4WD transfer case in the 4Runner off-road model though. That’s a big L compared to the LC250.Despite the fugly styling, this article seems to make the base, non-hybrid TRD Off-Road 4Runner look rather appealing and a lot cheaper than a LC250.
I Drove The New Toyota 4Runner. Here's How It Compares To The Land Cruiser - The Autopian
When the Toyota 4Runner debuted in April, many Toyota fans were confused. The brand had recently revealed a new Land Cruiser, which, unlike its predecessor (which was built on its own special platform) now shared the “TNGA-F” bones with its stablemates the Tacoma, Sequoia, and Tundra. So when...
I vastly prefer the looks of the LC250 but it's hard to justify the price when so much of the drivetrain is shared between the two vehicles.
To me, that’s worth at least a 10k price hike since it makes the car much safer to drive in patchy ice conditions. It’s largely a huge part of the Land Cruiser DNA.
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joseywales
Renaissance Redneck
I hear you. But like any true Land Cruiser nut, I’ve owned a whack of them (8+) and I would still pay an extra 20% over a 4Runner. Is that dumb? Probably. Is it reality? Yup.
joseywales
Renaissance Redneck
But we ain’ts got no snow this year, bro.
What part of Spokey are you in Zill? I’m up north of Colville.
Hah - the meteorologists are saying that’s going to change this week, and I will be glad to have full time 4WD when it hits. That’s where land cruisers shine.But we ain’ts got no snow this year, bro.
What part of Spokey are you in Zill? I’m up north of Colville.
The very north side of Spokane, just before you hit farmland. It’s a wonderful place to be.
In fact, Colville is a great place as well.
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I have an AWD transfer case rig and love it. But, considering the whole T-case is maybe a $3500 part, Toyota charging $7-10k more to access it is highway robbery.
Just sayin'
EDIT: Looks like the 6th gen T4R Limited retains the AWD T-case from the 5th gen, and can be had in a non-hybrid configuration. Unfortunately it starts at $57K, lacks a rear locker, and has 20" wheels. Seems to be a bit of a wash with a LC250 as you'd have to add a locker (which is totally doable) and swap out wheels/tires to get something wheelable.
Looking at the massive cargo space reduction with the hybrid battery in the new TNGA-F platforms, I think I'd go non-hybrid T4R, GX550, or LX600 and then add whatever off-road hardware it is lacking. In our Highlander the battery is under the 2nd row seats and is barely noticeable, but that's a unibody chassis which is much closer to the ground. I also see the hybrid battery making it harder to fit drawers in the rear of the rig, as well as sleep inside it. The MPG gains don't appear to be worth it for the BOF SUVs anyway, whereas in the unibody SUVs, the MPG gains with the hybrid setup are substantial and real.
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joseywales
Renaissance Redneck
Ok, enlighten me. Then why does a sold 1958 get changed to a LC trim on my dealers incoming order? It was an “inventory” unit that was ordered and had a ship date, and my name is (was) on it. Why would Toyota change trim levels on a sold unit if they “build to the pace of sales”? Now they are building/shipping an unsold unit.
joseywales
Renaissance Redneck
And to the AWD thing, my ‘03 Sequoia base model has a 4.7 and the AWD t-case. It is awesome. I can run in 2wd in the dry, and push one button and have AWD if it gets slick or there is even a hint that it might. I’m not sure about how much fuel I save with the 2wd option, as my 100 series with the same engine and transmission weighs considerably more than the Sequoia, so any fuel savings isn’t apples to apples. Not that I’ve ever cared about putting gas in a 4x4 with a V8. It’s just what you have to do. However, if the 250 with it’s almost 20 mpg does arrive for me, I’m sure I won’t hate to put less gas in it, and less often.
You may be the person who takes receipt of the vehicle when new, but you are not the person who purchases the truck from the manufacturer, Toyota. The dealer places an order for a truck with Toyota. Once the order is received by Toyota the entirety of the manufacturing process is "pulled" from the point where the truck drives out of the factory. That is, Toyota doesn't start to build anything until an order is placed. In this way, following with the culture of reducing waste, aka JIT, TPS, LEAN, HEIJUNKA, no parts are produced that will sit at or between manufacturing processes, including finished vehicles. Anything that is not being sent downstream is considered WIP or work in progress and is "Muda" or waste. Parts get to processes only when they are needed, only in the quantity they are needed. This prevents both over and underproduction. It is slightly more complicated than this of course, with "supermarkets" where small amounts of inventory are kept, supporting downstream processes. Parts are attached with a Kanban and as soon as a Kanban is separated from the part, by the part moving to the next production station, there is now a need to manufacture a part to re-attach the KANBAN to.
The gist of it is that there have never been any "allotments" to Toyota dealers. That word is fundamentally opposite of how the Pull system operates. Some of you will try to argue this, because the dealer may have absolutely convinced you. If you understand TPS, then you know it's just not true. Remember, the dealers know little to nothing about Toyota culture, they exist only to separate you from your money, and they could care less about the Toyota Way. Toyota doesn't produce X amount just to provide X/Y to dealers. Dealers order X, Toyota builds X. The whole idea of an allotment stems from a PUSH system that can't keep up with demand, one of the numerous faults that plague that production method. Supply chain issues that no longer exist almost made it seem like Toyota did get allotments, it's just that PULL and PUSH systems are seemingly both affected the same by supply issues to the eyes of the consumer. That is, they want to consume something that isn't available. When one becomes available it's like piranha on fresh meat. This is why I spent 3 years trying to buy a 4Runner.
Dealers have used the word allotment over and over the past several years to stimulate the buyer into believing there is some sense of urgency to buy, most times at elevated prices and/or without negotiations. Other choice words used by salesmen post China virus and the Biden regime are "limited", "rare', "special", etc. It's all your typical salesmen horse****. A prime example of this is the Nissan Z, the "allotments" are piled up at dealers and they can't even be sold at $10,000 off MSRP. I've watched two of them at my local dealer sitting on the lot for close to a year now. Since those cars hit the lot and never sold, the dealer suddenly didn't receive any more "allotments". Makes you wonder, at which point does the word allotment no longer apply at the dealer level for a Japanese LEAN produced vehicle? The answer is when an educated consumer stops believing it.
As far as a dealer incoming order getting "changed", again if you understand TPS, then you know that's total hogwash. It was a unit, it was ordered from Toyota, and it had the dealers name on it. Once a different customer came through the door willing to pay more than you, bingo, your "order" was altered.
Everyone involved profits more on a sale of an upper trim unit.
Which flies in the face of so many here claiming that the 1958 trim is not a good value for the consumer. The upper trims are in fact much worse values for your dollar. You just perceive it as a better value because you get to sit in nicer seats, look out your moon roof, and get distracted by a bigger screen. Meanwhile that stuff doesn't cost Toyota nearly as much as what you are paying over base to upgrade.
Any "upgrade" offered in the automotive world is by default going to have more manufacturer margin available for capture versus the margin in the base unit of production.
Long live the base models! Negotiate. Buy the 1958. Buy the SR5 4R - upgrade to part time 4wd though...
I think all of the LC250s offer a poor value
. Sure the upper-trim models are a worse value, but that does not absolve the 1958 of also being a poor value, relative to both Toyota's other offerings (SR5 or non-hybrid TRD OR 4Runner) and domestic offerings.
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I worked in the auto sales industry for 7 years at three different dealerships working with 6 different new car manufactures including Toyota. I don't recall ever using or hearing the word "allotment" in that time, "allocation" yes. Different manufactures have different processes. Toyota in my experience was the hardest to get a vehicle spec'd specifically the way you wanted it.
I've been out if it for nearly 20 years now so I'm sure things have changed some. During my purchase experience last summer my local dealer and former employer was easy to deal with. But I did have to wait until they were allocated a 250 in the trim and color I wanted. Then there was some control over the extra options and my dealer was willing to work with me. The window for the dealer to modify a build is short and most dealers don't bother. That's how it was explained to me recently and I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the info I was given. Dealer trades are a whole different variable and can be done long before the vehicle lands on the ground.
I will say the last 3 Subaus we have bought for my wife were so much easier. Give my local dealer the trim/color/exact options and 7 weeks later the car arrives just the way you want it.
Going into the 250 sales cycle I was told dealers would get their initial allocation of 250's based off of their 4Runner sales numbers and then as 250's started hitting the ground the dealers were being allocated 2 more 250's for every unit sold. It's not a level playing field for all dealers.
To me, good or bad value is directly related to how I feel when I use or sit in the car/product I've bought. I could not care less if Toyota spent more or less in relation to their resources to manufacture that product/car or if they made X amount of money more because I bought the higher trim.
I paid $80k for a pre-owned LC200HE because: (i) it only had 34k miles, (ii) it was a gold CPO, (iii) it was owned just once by a doctor's wife that use it to mall crawl, (iv) was a Texas truck with zero rust and (v) it was a Heritage Edition. The only flaw it had in my eyes were a couple of shopping mall pins stripes in the doors. Every time I sit on it and crank the V8, drive it on the street absorbing bumps and craters like a tank and when I am insulated from the road and can't hear one single rattle or squeak, I feel like a king looking over the peasants
and a great value for the $80k I paid. Is it a lot of money? yes, but I feel that is totally worth it.Now, if I had to pay $60k to sit and drive a 1958 with those hard plastics, flimsy grab handle, whining engine and having to muscle the position of my seat every time my wife drives the car and change to fit her, I would most definitely NOT feel value for the $60k I would have paid - even if Toyota might have made less money for that unit.
When I sit in my wife's 5th gen 4runner TrdPro, it has nice softex electric seats, a very nice and cushy fox suspension, moonroof, etc. Do I feel an immediate downgrade from my LC? Absolutely yes - the moment I open the door, but again we only paid $56k for it and the value (to me) is still there. It feels solid and well built. A bullet proof V6. The 5speed transmission is old and gear hunts when road tripping, but for that we have my LC buttery smooth. It makes vroom vroom with the TRD exhaust, and my wife loves it. Nothing flimsy or hard plastics everywhere. Again, to me, though pushing boundaries, the value for the $56k was/is there. Had we bought a 5th gen TDR OR, it would have been an even greater value for even less money.
This is still how it works with Toyota and Lexus both. It is literally impossible to order a bespoke vehicle as a customer. All you are doing is going into a dealer, giving them your desired model, trim, and options and from there it all depends on what allocations that dealer gets and how many of them. From there do those allocations match what you wanted? Toyota is going to build whatever they want and send them out. A dealer can tell the port not to bother with their add on's but thats pretty much the only thing they have control over.
With pretty much every other manufacture I'm familiar with you can have the dealer place the order exactly how you want it (within the available trims and options for that model of course). They just need an allocation for that model and from there they can tailor it to whatever you want. Edit to add, when going this route you will get to follow your build every step of the way. You get a order confirmation, VIN assignment, will see where it's at in production, shipping, all the way to the day it's scheduled to arrive at the dealership. None of these stupid wait lists where Toyota is like... oh you want a new GX 550? That will be 6 to 12 months and we will call you when we have something we can sell you. Sorry it's not exactly what you wanted but it's close enough right?
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To Allocate is to distribute according to a plan. An allotment is the allowance of a specific amount of a particular thing to a particular person. I suppose both could be used almost interchangeably depending on the context of the garbage spewing from a salesman's mouth as to why they want to sell you a new vehicle over MSRP. Both are technically wrong.
The reason why you can't "order" a vehicle exactly the way you want falls back to other principles of TPS and LEAN. You can only order whatever trim level has been designed and built, because the assembly line workers, we will refer to them as Takumi specialists (as Tahara has the highest concentration of them), work from standardized work. These are standardized work instructions to ensure that work is performed exactly the way it is supposed to be. Imagine the chaos that would ensue by asking assembly line workers to custom assemble 10^x combinations of options, on each vehicle, expecting them to get all your options perfectly assembled with no defects and without waste in the process. They follow STD work for each trim line, providing you with packages representative of what their marketing team believes customers will want. Theres always the port add Ons, like the Chinese made charging cable kit. Mine was included at the port and stolen in transit. That crap is 100% fluff, and you should never be paying what the window sticker says.
If you don't believe me, visit your local fast food burger chain and try to order a standard burger combo with a mashup of options. You're getting pickles and mustard no matter what!
I looked for a TRD Pro for what seemed like ever, hashed it out with dealers over and over and over again about why their $40k used trucks were priced at $56k. I heard a lot of bull about rare this, allotment/allocation that. I eventually realized there was nothing I could do to combat their greed other than to not buy. Lots of other people did. I figured it was not a good idea to pay $56k for a truck with a $30k interior, so I went and bought a brand new 23' GX for the same exact price, 60% down and 2.49% interest for 48 months. I think I lucked out. Ended up getting a free 92' SR5 with towing package with 158k miles to satisfy the 4runner itch.
Yeah. I kinda had a similar experience last year, but I was ah-ok with the PRO MSRP. Just because I "had to have" the TRD PRO and I am also betting on the rarity or whatever word they use, to have a better resale value, if I ever have to let go of it (doubt my wife will let me - she would probably divorce me and get the car for herI looked for a TRD Pro for what seemed like ever, hashed it out with dealers over and over and over again about why their $40k used trucks were priced at $56k. I heard a lot of bull about rare this, allotment/allocation that. I eventually realized there was nothing I could do to combat their greed other than to not buy. Lots of other people did. I figured it was not a good idea to pay $56k for a truck with a $30k interior, so I went and bought a brand new 23' GX for the same exact price, 60% down and 2.49% interest for 48 months. I think I lucked out. Ended up getting a free 92' SR5 with towing package with 158k miles to satisfy the 4runner itch.
).My battle with them was to rule out the stealers that wanted a mark-up for the PRO. Those bastards. I immediately crossed out the ones that had this practice and this was my opening line with all of them. "I want to buy, and I am paying MSRP, not a penny more. Wanna sell it?" I also had a trade in so, the stealer I end up buying from also gave me a good value for it.
That said, if this was a purely non-emotional decision, the better and "more value for the money" deal would have been a TRD ORP. Almost the same as the PRO in terms of features, for much less money. Again, my plan was to have the last year PRO for the 5thgen and the (almost) last year - 2020 for the 200LC in HE form. So, far we have been pretty happy.
Toyota seems to play this game with the BOF SUVs where they never put everything together in one vehicle. It should be easy to order a LC250 or a 4Runner with awd, MTS/Locker, engine of choice, and the SDM. Toyota will spec a Tundra with nearly any mix and match combination of features. You can add the TRD OR package to any trim except maybe the SR. Why not do the same with the SUVs? TRD OR should be a package for any trim. Why not sell a 4Runner with AWD and a rear locker? Is it really that uncommon for of a product demand?
Interesting comparison looking back in 2015 a TRD OR (Trail) Premium was $38,885 without KDSS, and with KDSS had an MSRP of $40,655 and a TRD Pro was $41,310. IIRC I paid about $38k OTD for a Trail Premium with KDSS.
And of course why isn't there a LC250 with better suspension? Would also be pretty amazing for Toyota to offer a LC250 with at least similar suspension to the TRD OR, but ideally something like the OME setup from the Trailhunter, a snorkel, and bumper/winch. Just like this. Maybe call it a "Safari" trim or just "Trail".
Interesting comparison looking back in 2015 a TRD OR (Trail) Premium was $38,885 without KDSS, and with KDSS had an MSRP of $40,655 and a TRD Pro was $41,310. IIRC I paid about $38k OTD for a Trail Premium with KDSS.
And of course why isn't there a LC250 with better suspension? Would also be pretty amazing for Toyota to offer a LC250 with at least similar suspension to the TRD OR, but ideally something like the OME setup from the Trailhunter, a snorkel, and bumper/winch. Just like this. Maybe call it a "Safari" trim or just "Trail".
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Well, I got duped into clicking on this thread thinking I might have something of value to contribute. Yall must love each other so much your conversations take on a life of its own. Anyways, for those of you still interested in price negotiations, here’s an interesting guide I found and used to much effect. Great if you want to bargain the heck out of dealers, How to Negotiate Car Price: 5 Steps to Lock in the Best Deal - https://carflock.com/article/how-to-negotiate-car-price.
