pre cup destruction

[lowenbrau]

I've used that rationale before, and now I'm married.

Tell me more about the 14b crank swap...

I'm of the opinion that the only significant difference between a 13B and 14B is the crank and pistons. 200cc of displacement, all in stroke has got to have a nice effect on torque. I haven't tried it yet but I do have a spare block, just waiting.

Stedman-san can supply new 14B crankshafts and I'm pretty sure Mahle will have affordable pistons but I haven't found a p/n for them yet. .

 

[crushers]

DI = sensitive throttle issues with the 13BT
parts are now obsolete and more and more are getting that way with the 13BT.
fuel economy is not as good with the 13BT as with the 3B.
24V is the only option and 24V parts are getting harder and harder to find.

so

go DI and regret it.

 

[profff]

DI = sensitive throttle issues with the 13BT
parts are now obsolete and more and more are getting that way with the 13BT.
fuel economy is not as good with the 13BT as with the 3B.
24V is the only option and 24V parts are getting harder and harder to find.

so

go DI and regret it.

I'm not looking at an entire 13bt swap, just thinking that the option of putting a 13bt head on a 3b engine so a guy doesn't have to worry about pre-cups isn't too bad.

I don't think (and please correct me if I am wrong), that would mean going to 24V. From what I can tell it would mean a new head, new pistons, new rods, new injectors.

I would think that the economy would get better with direct injection, but that wouldn't be the first time I was wrong today. Just judging on my experience with Ford diesels. How much worse are we talking? (I know there are a thousand factors that go into mileage, but it is going to be the same guy driving the same roads the same way so is there really a mileage drop from the 3b to a 13bt?)

The touchy throttle I don't think would be an issue, because it is backed by an h55. From what I can gather the electronic controlled autos were the source of the problem, not the engine. Thoughts?

 

[crushers]

opposite, the auto allows for the sensitive throttle but the manual magnifies the problem.

lets see how you do at sourcing the parts you need, i will be interested in the outcome. getting rid of the precups is a great idea but not at the expense of the list above ... not in my books.

the mileage is mid to low 20s for the 13BT and mid to high 20s (even low 30s) with the 3B ... on average.

AFAIK there isn't a 12V glow screen for the 13BT but i could be wrong.

 

[lowenbrau]

There are probably a bunch more things to consider.

You'll lose the glow-plugs so you'll need some other way to get it to start below freezing (glow screen or ether).

 

[Dougal]

Would a cummins 4BT injection pump bolt on as well?
Instant ticket to a boost compensator, more fuel capacity and no more pneumatic governor.

Sensitive throttle? Yeah it's good to have an engine that actually reacts to the pedal.

 

[crushers]

agree ... depending on the situation and application.

Sensitive throttle? Yeah it's good to have an engine that actually reacts to the pedal.

 

[Hulsty]

opposite, the auto allows for the sensitive throttle but the manual magnifies the problem.

lets see how you do at sourcing the parts you need, i will be interested in the outcome. getting rid of the precups is a great idea but not at the expense of the list above ... not in my books.

the mileage is mid to low 20s for the 13BT and mid to high 20s (even low 30s) with the 3B ... on average.

AFAIK there isn't a 12V glow screen for the 13BT but i could be wrong.

IMO I have never experienced 13BT this sensitive throttle issue, I move the accelerator, the engine responds, isnt that hows things are meant to be?

Regarding fuel consumption, I agree with the 13BT fuel consumption I am getting low 20MPG (US) but I fail to see how a 3B putting out the same power and torque and driven in the same manner could use less fuel a statement of fact is the 3B is less efficient being IDI.

When your talking about the glow screen do you mean a 12V is no longer available new from the dealer? Aus spec BJ74's are 12V with glow screens, such as mine.

 

[lostmarbles]

Sensitive throttle....... Heck ... Any high-torque diesel engine (with low-geared manual transmission) can get this in crawl mode .... Even my humble non-turbo 2977cc B.

I often get into "surge mode" off-road when crawling along slowly and a sudden bump make my foot move downwards on the accelerator making me surge forward ...so I immediately lift my foot ... and another rock straightaway makes me almost stop completely ... so my right foot moves down again ... and I surge forward again.... .... .... ..... ..... etc etc (with the surges becoming more and more violent).

(I suspect this is what is meant here by "sensitive throttle".)

To avoid the problem, I try to rest my foot on the floor and use just my big toe on the power-pedal. (I almost always drive in bare feet ... or with just socks on at most ...LOL.) But I admit that this measure doesn't always succeed.

So ... another step I may take is to use the hand-throttle. But of course this can be too dangerous in areas where there are shear dropoffs around.

So I may simply increase my speed.

And if that's not appropriate, I stop altogether and start off again fresh. (And repeat each time I start "bunny-hopping" from the surging.)

Really it is no big deal though. Because I most often start "bunny-hopping" when I'm off-roading after having had a break from it. (In other words ... I experience "sensitive throttle issues" mainly when my "pedal control skills" have faded.)

 

[crushers]

the 13BT, 12HT response is VERY sensitive. i have driven more B series engine equiped Cruisers than i can remember and have never had the same issue. turbo or not. it is the direct injection that is the problem.

as for "i can't see a IDI engine getting better fuel economy than a DI" is once again book knowledge being expounded instead of real life experience. personally, i don't give a rats ass what the book says. i want proof and in Canada the proof shows that a Toyota IDI engine does return better fuel mileage than the DI ones.
2H returns better than the 12HT (except for John's experience).
3B better than the 13BT

even if you turbo a Toyota IDI and drive it exactly the same as a DI, the IDI will return better.

why? i have no idea and i don't really care why. they just do and that is good enough for me.

add to this my dislike of the sensitive throttle issue and a DI engine will not grace my fleet again.
(except for my PowerSmoke, i do have a passion for it ... although it ain't no Toyota)

 

[Dougal]

the 13BT, 12HT response is VERY sensitive. i have driven more B series engine equiped Cruisers than i can remember and have never had the same issue. turbo or not. it is the direct injection that is the problem.

It's the pneumatic governor vs mechanical governor you're feeling there. Not the injection mechanism.

as for "i can't see a IDI engine getting better fuel economy than a DI" is once again book knowledge being expounded instead of real life experience. personally, i don't give a rats ass what the book says. i want proof and in Canada the proof shows that a Toyota IDI engine does return better fuel mileage than the DI ones.
2H returns better than the 12HT (except for John's experience).
3B better than the 13BT

Yeah book knowledge, like Crushers telling us when 100 series diesels went on sale.

IDI engines get better fuel economy in exactly the same way that the first minis get better fuel economy than the current minis.
Smaller and lighter vehicle that doesn't get driven as fast.


There's one person in the entire world who thinks IDI is more efficient. his name is Wayne.

 

[crushers]

nah, there is one person that is willing to state the truth ... the rest are lurkers too scare to feel the wrath of Dougal.

so, curious, how fast is the speed limit? that is the speed new and old vehicles drive at.

is a HDJ81 heavier than a HZJ81?
is a BJ74 heavier than a BJ73?
is a HJ61 heavier than a HJ60?
how much heavier is the HDJ79 vrs the HZJ79?

seriously, you will believe what you will.

 

[Hulsty]

the 13BT, 12HT response is VERY POWERFUL!!.

Correction

 

[crushers]

agree completely...

 

[Dougal]

nah, there is one person that is willing to state the truth ... the rest are lurkers too scare to feel the wrath of Dougal.

so, curious, how fast is the speed limit? that is the speed new and old vehicles drive at.

is a HDJ81 heavier than a HZJ81?
is a BJ74 heavier than a BJ73?
is a HJ61 heavier than a HJ60?
how much heavier is the HDJ79 vrs the HZJ79?

seriously, you will believe what you will.

Lets see now.
Yes the HDJ81 is heavier, it's also usually automatic, fulltime 4wd and still returns better fuel economy.
BJ73/BJ74, too many variables.
HJ60/HJ61 too many variables.
HDJ79 is a vehicle you told me didn't exist not so long ago.

But in all cases, yes the fuel economy is better for the di engines.

The speed limit here is 100km/h. The BJ4x owners I know don't drive them at 100km/h. 80-90km/h is their crusing speed.

 

[crushers]

i have often wondered if the excessive EGTs in stock condition has anything to do with the precup failure ...
not sure.

 

[lowenbrau]

i have often wondered if the excessive EGTs in stock condition has anything to do with the precup failure ...
not sure.

I expect it does. Indirect injected engines run all their heat past that small, poorly cooled precup opening. Direct injected engines with piston skirt cooling seem to manage the heat better.

The unfortunate thing about comparing 3B fuel mileage with 13BT is that one has a turbo and the ability to use more fuel to make more power. In my experience it also supports much larger tires and more accessories. Book knowledge tells us to compare apples to apples.

Fuel consumption numbers are nearly always quoted based on the will of the poster. I once got better than 11l/100km mileage in our hdj81 but the real world average over a summer of fillups shows an average of 15l/100km. Fuelly.com is a fun application to use because you can see that nobody who uses it gets anywhere close to the mileage that most guys on this site claim. Look up by model and engine and you'll get a pretty good picture of real world mileage.

I'll take issue with crushers on the obsolescence. I did once find an unavailable 13BT part that I wanted but I checked a while later and it was available again. I don't think the availability changes much between direct and indirect injected engines. I have also occasionally had trouble finding factory BJ42 fenders but I wouldn't discourage someone from buying a 40 series for that reason.

The sensitive throttle is not an issue for me. 37" tires mellowed it right out.

 

[crushers]

site, pretty much as i expected ...

i agree, both engines are getting harder to find parts for

 

[profff]

I expect it does. Indirect injected engines run all their heat past that small, poorly cooled precup opening. Direct injected engines with piston skirt cooling seem to manage the heat better.

The unfortunate thing about comparing 3B fuel mileage with 13BT is that one has a turbo and the ability to use more fuel to make more power. In my experience it also supports much larger tires and more accessories. Book knowledge tells us to compare apples to apples.

Fuel consumption numbers are nearly always quoted based on the will of the poster. I once got better than 11l/100km mileage in our hdj81 but the real world average over a summer of fillups shows an average of 15l/100km. Fuelly.com is a fun application to use because you can see that nobody who uses it gets anywhere close to the mileage that most guys on this site claim. Look up by model and engine and you'll get a pretty good picture of real world mileage.

I'll take issue with crushers on the obsolescence. I did once find an unavailable 13BT part that I wanted but I checked a while later and it was available again. I don't think the availability changes much between direct and indirect injected engines. I have also occasionally had trouble finding factory BJ42 fenders but I wouldn't discourage someone from buying a 40 series for that reason.

The sensitive throttle is not an issue for me. 37" tires mellowed it right out.

Lowe - My sentiments exactly about fuel consumption. Comparing my numbers to anyone else is borderline silly. I'm not changing my rig a lot after the swap, so I will post up my numbers when I get them. Thank you for explaining it a bit more in depth than I could.

Wayne - You won't approve, but I'm going to pursue this a little further. I can handle 2x mpg. Obviously it would be nice to get better, but for me, the trade off is worth it. Like you said earlier, there is challenge of finding the parts and I will let you know how that goes in my build write up. While there always seems to be differing opinions between you and Dougal, I appreciate your feedback.

I have a couple of leads that I generated yesterday since I live so close to BC, but who knows if those will pan out. I'll let you know. I don't have the head off yet, but I was going to anyways to inspect the cups and replace the head gasket. I'd like to get this 12V glow screen thing nailed down and it is next on my list as soon as I secure the other hardware.


Dougal- Is there a remote possibility that an idiot like me could adapt a 4bt pump to a 3b? I actually have access to a Cummins 4b engine and parts, but I know little to nothing when it comes to diesel injection pumps other than the theory behind them. How does a boost compensator work? Would maintenance solve the pneumatic governor problem?

Thanks to everyone for feedback.

 

[crushers]

approve?

when did my approval mean anything on Mud?

you do what you want and i honestly wish you the best in the build.