Poll - LX570 owners using regular 87 octane or Premium (3 Viewers)

[coleAK]

I hardly think it could be close to $10k more in fuel. At 20,000 miles a year your talking ~$400 a year more for premium fuel. So that means it would take 500,000 miles and 25 years at 20k miles a year to possibly add up to $10k.

But then another thing to consider. when I bought my ‘13 LX in ‘15 I would have paid about $10k more for a similar condition/mileage ‘13 LC.

 

[Markuson]

Frankly, of all the cumulative wear on Land Cruisers and other Toyota vehicles I’ve owned...not a single one was done in by engine failure. It was always the accumulation of other factors or failures. If someone’s LC or LX dies simply due to 3 octanes points...it would be news worthy to me.

 

[Markuson]

I hardly think it could be close to $10k more in fuel. At 20,000 miles a year your talking ~$400 a year more for premium fuel. So that means it would take 500,000 miles and 25 years at 20k miles a year to possibly add up to $10k.

But then another thing to consider. when I bought my ‘13 LX in ‘15 I would have paid about $10k more for a similar condition/mileage ‘13 LC.

I guess it depends on how much your areas fleeces you for Premium. Some areas, it’s as high as 60 cents difference per gallon. That’s over $17 extra per tank.

200,000 miles at 14mpg (better than my mpg) means 14,286 gallons of fuel.

If you pay a 60 cent difference going from 87 to premium... you’re partly right that it’s not $20k. That’s only $8571 over 200k. But some places it’s 70 cents more...so there it is.

But anyway... At 60 cents and 14mpg (I get 10-11 mpg), is it worth $8571?
Or even half that?
Not for one half of one percent more HP.
Call me cheap...

 

[krice118]

use whatever fuel helps you sleep better and be done with it

 

[gaijin]

 

[SWUtah]

Just filled up Daytona Beach $2.46 87 octane $3.36 93 octane. That’s 90 cents or 70 cents if you’re drunk If ever other time I get gas which is about every 100 miles I use regular then next time I use premium the octane level would average out to 90 which should be close enough and save me 1/2 the difference in cost

 

[I6turbo]

Oh my! This impossible-to-settle argument again?

I'll cut-and-paste something I wrote one of the other 25 times this has been "discussed."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've owned 46 vehicles in my life from simple, old-school hot rods to modern performance cars to 18 wheelers, and just about everything else. I do all my own work, never taken one to a shop except for a few free things like warranty work, and a hand-full of alignments. I'll follow the manual if I think I should, not because someone on the internet recommends that I do what they do. Since about 2003 I've been running my Supra on the stock short block (ported head, aftermarket camshafts, fuel system, and other modifications) in a state of tune that makes more than 850 HP from 3 liters. For THAT engine, I run at least 110 Motor octane, and often higher. No premium in the LX or GX, though.

Here's something further on the subject of why manufacturers recommend higher octane (but I won't go into detail, it being Christmas night, me having things I want to do instead....)

A modern engine of good design, in good condition, that's been burning good quality fuel, actually requires several octane points LOWER than the manufacturer states in the "manual." The REASON for this "discrepancy" between what the manual says and what the engine actually needs is that manufacturers specify the octane requirement for a new vehicle based upon what the condition of the combustion chambers might be after the vehicle accumulates several tens of thousands of miles with less-than-ideal quality fuel. Or what it might need after the engine is older and perhaps has started burning some oil (which will very likely lead to deposits)

The primary determiner of octane demand ends up being the temperature that the air/fuel charge reaches before it is ignited by the spark (I won't go into why, but it is). In a clean engine ( that is, "clean" combustion chambers), the temperature that the air/fuel mixture reaches will be relatively low because a lot of the residual heat from the previous combustion event is dissipated through the valves, piston top, and the rest of the cylinder head surface inside the combustion chamber. In this clean engine, when the new charge of air/fuel mixture comes into the cylinder, it doesn't soak up too much heat from the combustion chamber surfaces because they've "cooled" down a good bit. HOWEVER, in engines that burn oil, or that have burned a lot of fuel that is prone to leave carbon deposits, there will be an insulating layer of deposits on these heat-sink surfaces. This layer retains much more heat than does bare metal. Consequently, the fresh air/fuel mixture gets heated several degrees more than it would in an engine with little or no deposits inside the combustion chamber. The result is that the fuel needs a significantly higher anti-knock index, a.k.a., higher octane in these old/deposit-laden engines.

Manufacturers cannot afford to develop a reputation of their engines pinging/knocking/crapping out when they reach 100K miles (or whatever) simply because they've been burning poor quality fuel or for some other reason have developed some deposits inside the combustion chambers. If they did, the resale value of their vehicles would be in the toilet. Therefore, they rate the octane "requirement" high enough that even an older engine in not-so-great condition will be okay with it.

The then-R&D manager for the company that developed Techron back in the day is an acquaintance of mine. He is mostly retired now, but is one of the worlds foremost authorities on fuel additives, including octane boosters. He gave me my my understanding of the OEM octane "requirements" thing. Now you know (unless you choose not to believe.)

Quote:
"If you ever towed with your truck you'll understand about this more readily. I used to tow 7500 lbs. fifth wheel driving at sea level up to high altitudes in the Rockies. I live in Foothills region. Experience is a good teacher...."

I've towed plenty - 5th-wheel trailers with earth-moving equipment (very heavy) and livestock trailers (only about 13K pounds). I've built engines specifically for some of those pulling trucks. But that's irrelevant here because the subject is whether or not premium fuel is needed for a 200 series LX 570, most likely going to the grocery store at a maximum of 40% throttle opening. They don't, IME.

 

[coleAK]

Crazy. Up here in AK premium is only $0.10 to $0.20 more. I just filled up. Reg was $3.29 and premium was $3.39. Also we don’t have EtOH in our gas up here . No corn just pure Dino

 

[gaijin]

Just filled up Daytona Beach $2.46 87 octane $3.36 93 octane. That’s 70 cents.

Must be New Math In my world, that's a 90 cent difference.

HTH

 

[Markuson]

Must be New Math In my world, that's a 90 cent difference.

HTH

Get with the times, man! In today’s classrooms, if you FEEEEL it adds up...it adds up...FOR YOU.

 

[SWUtah]

Must be New Math In my world, that's a 90 cent difference.

HTH

On my third Long Island ice tea so that makes it 70 cents. First time I typed it I put 90 cents looked at it and said that can’t be right and changed it to 70

 

[gaijin]

On my third Long Island ice tea so that makes it 70 cents. First time I typed it I put 90 cents looked at it and said that can’t be right and changed it to 70

That's OK. The first time I read it I thought, "Well, it's finally happened - I can't do math in my head anymore."

 

[I6turbo]

Get with the times, man! In today’s classrooms, if you FEEEEL it adds up...it adds up...FOR YOU.

 

[mdrei]

Oh my! This impossible-to-settle argument again?

I'll cut-and-paste something I wrote one of the other 25 times this has been "discussed."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've owned 46 vehicles in my life from simple, old-school hot rods to modern performance cars to 18 wheelers, and just about everything else. I do all my own work, never taken one to a shop except for a few free things like warranty work, and a hand-full of alignments. I'll follow the manual if I think I should, not because someone on the internet recommends that I do what they do. Since about 2003 I've been running my Supra on the stock short block (ported head, aftermarket camshafts, fuel system, and other modifications) in a state of tune that makes more than 850 HP from 3 liters. For THAT engine, I run at least 110 Motor octane, and often higher. No premium in the LX or GX, though.

Here's something further on the subject of why manufacturers recommend higher octane (but I won't go into detail, it being Christmas night, me having things I want to do instead....)

A modern engine of good design, in good condition, that's been burning good quality fuel, actually requires several octane points LOWER than the manufacturer states in the "manual." The REASON for this "discrepancy" between what the manual says and what the engine actually needs is that manufacturers specify the octane requirement for a new vehicle based upon what the condition of the combustion chambers might be after the vehicle accumulates several tens of thousands of miles with less-than-ideal quality fuel. Or what it might need after the engine is older and perhaps has started burning some oil (which will very likely lead to deposits)

The primary determiner of octane demand ends up being the temperature that the air/fuel charge reaches before it is ignited by the spark (I won't go into why, but it is). In a clean engine ( that is, "clean" combustion chambers), the temperature that the air/fuel mixture reaches will be relatively low because a lot of the residual heat from the previous combustion event is dissipated through the valves, piston top, and the rest of the cylinder head surface inside the combustion chamber. In this clean engine, when the new charge of air/fuel mixture comes into the cylinder, it doesn't soak up too much heat from the combustion chamber surfaces because they've "cooled" down a good bit. HOWEVER, in engines that burn oil, or that have burned a lot of fuel that is prone to leave carbon deposits, there will be an insulating layer of deposits on these heat-sink surfaces. This layer retains much more heat than does bare metal. Consequently, the fresh air/fuel mixture gets heated several degrees more than it would in an engine with little or no deposits inside the combustion chamber. The result is that the fuel needs a significantly higher anti-knock index, a.k.a., higher octane in these old/deposit-laden engines.

Manufacturers cannot afford to develop a reputation of their engines pinging/knocking/crapping out when they reach 100K miles (or whatever) simply because they've been burning poor quality fuel or for some other reason have developed some deposits inside the combustion chambers. If they did, the resale value of their vehicles would be in the toilet. Therefore, they rate the octane "requirement" high enough that even an older engine in not-so-great condition will be okay with it.

The then-R&D manager for the company that developed Techron back in the day is an acquaintance of mine. He is mostly retired now, but is one of the worlds foremost authorities on fuel additives, including octane boosters. He gave me my my understanding of the OEM octane "requirements" thing. Now you know (unless you choose not to believe.)

Quote:
"If you ever towed with your truck you'll understand about this more readily. I used to tow 7500 lbs. fifth wheel driving at sea level up to high altitudes in the Rockies. I live in Foothills region. Experience is a good teacher...."

I've towed plenty - 5th-wheel trailers with earth-moving equipment (very heavy) and livestock trailers (only about 13K pounds). I've built engines specifically for some of those pulling trucks. But that's irrelevant here because the subject is whether or not premium fuel is needed for a 200 series LX 570, most likely going to the grocery store at a maximum of 40% throttle opening. They don't, IME.

Great explanation...thanks for re-posting!

 

[TeCKis300]

Oh my! This impossible-to-settle argument again?

I'll cut-and-paste something I wrote one of the other 25 times this has been "discussed."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've owned 46 vehicles in my life from simple, old-school hot rods to modern performance cars to 18 wheelers, and just about everything else. I do all my own work, never taken one to a shop except for a few free things like warranty work, and a hand-full of alignments. I'll follow the manual if I think I should, not because someone on the internet recommends that I do what they do. Since about 2003 I've been running my Supra on the stock short block (ported head, aftermarket camshafts, fuel system, and other modifications) in a state of tune that makes more than 850 HP from 3 liters. For THAT engine, I run at least 110 Motor octane, and often higher. No premium in the LX or GX, though.

Here's something further on the subject of why manufacturers recommend higher octane (but I won't go into detail, it being Christmas night, me having things I want to do instead....)

A modern engine of good design, in good condition, that's been burning good quality fuel, actually requires several octane points LOWER than the manufacturer states in the "manual." The REASON for this "discrepancy" between what the manual says and what the engine actually needs is that manufacturers specify the octane requirement for a new vehicle based upon what the condition of the combustion chambers might be after the vehicle accumulates several tens of thousands of miles with less-than-ideal quality fuel. Or what it might need after the engine is older and perhaps has started burning some oil (which will very likely lead to deposits)

The primary determiner of octane demand ends up being the temperature that the air/fuel charge reaches before it is ignited by the spark (I won't go into why, but it is). In a clean engine ( that is, "clean" combustion chambers), the temperature that the air/fuel mixture reaches will be relatively low because a lot of the residual heat from the previous combustion event is dissipated through the valves, piston top, and the rest of the cylinder head surface inside the combustion chamber. In this clean engine, when the new charge of air/fuel mixture comes into the cylinder, it doesn't soak up too much heat from the combustion chamber surfaces because they've "cooled" down a good bit. HOWEVER, in engines that burn oil, or that have burned a lot of fuel that is prone to leave carbon deposits, there will be an insulating layer of deposits on these heat-sink surfaces. This layer retains much more heat than does bare metal. Consequently, the fresh air/fuel mixture gets heated several degrees more than it would in an engine with little or no deposits inside the combustion chamber. The result is that the fuel needs a significantly higher anti-knock index, a.k.a., higher octane in these old/deposit-laden engines.

Manufacturers cannot afford to develop a reputation of their engines pinging/knocking/crapping out when they reach 100K miles (or whatever) simply because they've been burning poor quality fuel or for some other reason have developed some deposits inside the combustion chambers. If they did, the resale value of their vehicles would be in the toilet. Therefore, they rate the octane "requirement" high enough that even an older engine in not-so-great condition will be okay with it.

The then-R&D manager for the company that developed Techron back in the day is an acquaintance of mine. He is mostly retired now, but is one of the worlds foremost authorities on fuel additives, including octane boosters. He gave me my my understanding of the OEM octane "requirements" thing. Now you know (unless you choose not to believe.)

Quote:
"If you ever towed with your truck you'll understand about this more readily. I used to tow 7500 lbs. fifth wheel driving at sea level up to high altitudes in the Rockies. I live in Foothills region. Experience is a good teacher...."

I've towed plenty - 5th-wheel trailers with earth-moving equipment (very heavy) and livestock trailers (only about 13K pounds). I've built engines specifically for some of those pulling trucks. But that's irrelevant here because the subject is whether or not premium fuel is needed for a 200 series LX 570, most likely going to the grocery store at a maximum of 40% throttle opening. They don't, IME.

There's a lot of truth in what you state. It is unfortunately a narrow perspective. With all due respect to your Techron buddy, there's a reason in any engineering organization, that specialized disciplines are overseen by broader level architects and engineers. In this case, the difference between a petroleum engineer who is only concerned with fuel octane vs a systems engineer that is responsible for perhaps the lifecycle view of a vehicle. And specifies requirements for margin that may lead to a longer healthy engine life?

How is it that you think an engine ages, and begins the progression of losing compression, getting blow-by into the combustion chamber, that then leads to carbon deposits? What might accelerate that progression besides nominal wear? Intermittent bad combustion events perhaps? And these occurrences of knock that progressively wears sealing and internal surfaces and electrodes such that the flame front is no longer well controlled, with complete combustion, leaving more deposits? And when do you think that threshold is crossed such that one should use 91 octane?

Layman don't need to answer these questions. Engineers absolutely do with objective data. There's a reason a new motor has margin built into it. I love building high hp cars too but OEMs are in a completely different world than building an 850hp motor that might hold together for how long?

It's akin to young healthy children able to cope with a junk food diet. It's then a progression. So when do you think one should respect their diet to ensure long lasting health or performance?

 

[studawg]

That's OK. The first time I read it I thought, "Well, it's finally happened - I can't do math in my head anymore."

I surprised myself the other morning by being able to compare the outside diameters of a 285-70-17 to a 285-65-18, in inches, in the shower. Still got it. However, my memory evidently aint what it used to be because I've already forgotten which I determined was bigger!

 

[Chocolate]

In regards to range, I have calculated my MPG using 87 and 93 and there is typically a 0.2MPG or less variation. This is calculated by the number of miles divided by exact gallons of gas dispensed. Whether you adjust for tire size or not, there was very little variation in my experience with both.

When I tried both it was with Costco "top tier" gas in an "A" store which brings up the question again - how do you know what you're really getting and how many stations are selling regular as premium?

 

[TeCKis300]

There are LX 570 owners reporting over 100,000 miles (so far) on 87 octane. That's a fair amount of use, with no issues.

It's your prerogative.

As an engineer and hobbyist, working on platforms with engine controls and failure analysis professionally, while logging and tuning vehicles as a hobby, I've seen the inside workings of these things. If your standard is a some examples reaching 100k miles under nominal usage, than so be it. OEMs have to hold themselves to a different standard with rigor. The second or third buyer of your vehicle won't know the better anyways and just assume its bad luck.

I've done my job to inform you. What you do with that information is your decision.

 

[Markuson]

It's your prerogative.

As an engineer and hobbyist, working on platforms with engine controls and failure analysis professionally, while logging and tuning vehicles as a hobby, I've seen the inside workings of these things. If your standard is a some examples reaching 100k miles under nominal usage, than so be it. OEMs have to hold themselves to a different standard with rigor. The second or third buyer of your vehicle won't know the better anyways and just assume its bad luck.

I've done my job to inform you. What you do with that information is your decision.

Hmmm. OK. But what do you say to cases like my 100 series...that went from 60k miles to well over 200k miles on 87 when it required premium in the same language as the 570...with not s single fuel or engine issue when it was sold at 230k?

My case had zero effects even at 16 years old and high mileage.

It just doesn’t seem to cause the slow/long term damage many are claiming.

 

[SWUtah]

Hmmm. OK. But what do you say to cases like my 100 series...that went from 60k miles to well over 200k miles on 87 when it required premium in the same language as the 570...with not s single fuel or engine issue when it was sold at 230k?

My case had zero effects even at 16 years old and high mileage.

It just doesn’t seem to cause the slow/long term damage many are claiming.

My 2-2004 and my 2005 LX's all were Premium "recommended" not "required". 2015 LX states "required"