PCV 101 for Forced Induction 80's (1 Viewer)

[SUMOTOY]

I think what they are saying is talk to others as equals. You are not doing that. You started off great and simple, but then . . . . .

No one likes to be talked down to and when people start asking you lots of questions you talk down to them and tell them how much experience and how smart you are and don't discuss their question as an equal.

You are welcome to see it that way Ken. Post 1 was simple, and I knew W5 was premature about 'first post no one can argue'

From that post, I went several most patient rounds just trying to explain what I did. When a 5 minute job takes 5 hours to explain, you must excuse my lack of patience a bit. I am not a big guy on pics, but hey, I gave it a try, even marked up what I did on the pic (just taking the pic and marking it took longer than the mod). Wasn't good enough (can't see this, do this... Geez boys, Dan got it right away - and cked with TRD on the mod - so it was simple to him, and I would assume W5 got it too - and Ken, you posted you got it too)

The rest of it seems a bit over the top given post 1. This mod is not rocket science, and a google of PCV systems under boost, sure seems to support what I did and how I did it.

Please don't confuse me looking for others to do some thinking, with speaking down, or standing on a pulpit. I asked a simple question regarding turbo pcv, to wit: why do most (millions) of stock turbo systems use pre compressor pcv to maintain vacuum under boost?

It's a key question to answer before one goes pandering the PCV system.

Scott Justusson
TRD PCV mod emeritus

 

[landtank]

Sorry for asking some questions for some clarification on what I didn't understand. Here I thought this was a tech forum open for discussion. It won't happen again.

 

[turbocruiser]

You are welcome to see it that way Ken. Post 1 was simple, and I knew W5 was premature about 'first post no one can argue'

From that post, I went several most patient rounds just trying to explain what I did. When a 5 minute job takes 5 hours to explain, you must excuse my lack of patience a bit. I am not a big guy on pics, but hey, I gave it a try, even marked up what I did on the pic (just taking the pic and marking it took longer than the mod). Wasn't good enough (can't see this, do this... Geez boys, Dan got it right away - and cked with TRD on the mod - so it was simple to him, and I would assume W5 got it too - and Ken, you posted you got it too)

The rest of it seems a bit over the top given post 1. This mod is not rocket science, and a google of PCV systems under boost, sure seems to support what I did and how I did it.

Please don't confuse me looking for others to do some thinking, with speaking down, or standing on a pulpit. I asked a simple question regarding turbo pcv, to wit: why do most (millions) of stock turbo systems use pre compressor pcv to maintain vacuum under boost?

It's a key question to answer before one goes pandering the PCV system.

Scott Justusson
TRD PCV mod emeritus

Sumo, sorry sounds so much like you will always want it both ways; you label these things "101" all the time (which is what I was objecting to openly from the start) which implies the introductory level of things but then you totally balk at any additional questions. You try to put yourself on your pedestal of experience and expertise presumably to teach the others but then you state that they simply cannot comprehend without your experience and your expertise. Pretty silly posture if you ask me. Anyways have I mentioned that my intake is much much less "crappy" than yours?

 

[bernie]

Hi Guys,
As a newbe i would like say G'day from OZ , what a great forum you have and well done to all those who contribute,i have a 96 fzj 80 and have been following the disscusion on PCV placement with great interest, as i am looking to fit a s/c in the near future. So now i have a question , does PCV mean POSITIVE Crankcase Ventilation at which point should POSITIVE be 0 or NEGATIVE , all the cars i have worked on or seen have the PCV connected to the throttle body where there is positive manifold vac and any vapours are spread over all cylinders. As far as catch cans are concerned that is a personal choice and not a bad idea , i must say i agree with Post 1, and i dont understand why TRD did not rerout the PCV , the only thing i can think of , is on a new engine blowby is not an issue. Thanks again for a great forum. Thats my .02c

 

[Romer]

You are welcome to see it that way Ken. Post 1 was simple, and I knew W5 was premature about 'first post no one can argue'

From that post, I went several most patient rounds just trying to explain what I did. When a 5 minute job takes 5 hours to explain, you must excuse my lack of patience a bit. I am not a big guy on pics, but hey, I gave it a try, even marked up what I did on the pic (just taking the pic and marking it took longer than the mod). Wasn't good enough (can't see this, do this... Geez boys, Dan got it right away - and cked with TRD on the mod - so it was simple to him, and I would assume W5 got it too - and Ken, you posted you got it too)

The rest of it seems a bit over the top given post 1. This mod is not rocket science, and a google of PCV systems under boost, sure seems to support what I did and how I did it.

Please don't confuse me looking for others to do some thinking, with speaking down, or standing on a pulpit. I asked a simple question regarding turbo pcv, to wit: why do most (millions) of stock turbo systems use pre compressor pcv to maintain vacuum under boost?

It's a key question to answer before one goes pandering the PCV system.

Scott Justusson
TRD PCV mod emeritus

Scott I appreciated the way you started the thread and even said so. It was a big step. I know folks got a little heated and then they calmed down, but you then talked down, kind of dismissing folks questions. Your a smart guy and others take a little longer trying to understand. You will get farther and it will probably take less time to answer peoples questions directly rather than just referring them back to post 1.

Oh well, off to Moab in the AM

 

[reffug]

Oh well, off to Moab in the AM

I must admit that I have been watching this thread with mild interest.

That being said I feel others have already said everything I personally would have wanted to, and in a much more diplomatic format.

It is a well known fact here I would think that Romer is the diplomat and I tend to be the hammer. He will be in Moab for the week so I would like it known that this stay's civil or I will lock it, end of story.

 

[landtank]

Hi Guys,
As a newbe i would like say G'day from OZ , what a great forum you have and well done to all those who contribute,i have a 96 fzj 80 and have been following the disscusion on PCV placement with great interest, as i am looking to fit a s/c in the near future. So now i have a question , does PCV mean POSITIVE Crankcase Ventilation at which point should POSITIVE be 0 or NEGATIVE , all the cars i have worked on or seen have the PCV connected to the throttle body where there is positive manifold vac and any vapours are spread over all cylinders. As far as catch cans are concerned that is a personal choice and not a bad idea , i must say i agree with Post 1, and i dont understand why TRD did not rerout the PCV , the only thing i can think of , is on a new engine blowby is not an issue. Thanks again for a great forum. Thats my .02c

Technically there is nothing wrong with how Toyota set up the PCV routing. It's in a standard configuration. I'm sure they had to have the SC certified and going this route would have made that process easier. What Scott did was to eliminate the chance of boost entering the engine which can pressurize the block and blow out seals. This is usually done with a check valve but in his method it also enhanced ventilation.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Technically there is nothing wrong with how Toyota set up the PCV routing. It's in a standard configuration. I'm sure they had to have the SC certified and going this route would have made that process easier. What Scott did was to eliminate the chance of boost entering the engine which can pressurize the block and blow out seals. This is usually done with a check valve but in his method it also enhanced ventilation.

Technically, there is nothing wrong with how toyota set up the PCV routing on the *stock* truck, it's standard configuration. I would also venture that if CARB really looked at this SC application, they would require the routing as I did it. I really doubt they are aware that on boost, there is not pcv with the SC application. On an EPA certified production turbo or supercharged vehicle, the routing TRD did would be considered not in compliance. You must have PCV under boost on a compliant turbo or SC application. That said, I really doubt CARB has time to look at each individual secondary PCV application to make sure it's compliant. That said II, I'd bet they'd be happy to add that "proof" requirement by the applicant. I did a CARB applicaiton a few years ago, they don't miss much.

What I did was assure that there was adequate on boost vacuum feed for the PCV. I did *not* do this to prevent boost from entering the engine (I have plenty of audi turbo PCV valves that would fit), I did this to prevent crankcase ventilation buildup which can pressurize the crankcase and valve cover and blow out the seals. On a boosted motor this is usually *not* done with a ck valve. The pcv routing to the turbo inlet is usually without the ck valve, the other pcv routing, the one to the intake manifold, contains the ck valve (to prevent boost from entering the crankcase ventilation system).

Standard boosted engine routing of closed loop PCV:
1 vent line to the intake manifold (or throttle body port) with ck valve
1 vent line to the turbo inlet without ck valve

Engine vacuum: PCV vents thru the intake/Tbody and turbo inlet
Engine boost: PCV valve closes, PCV vents thru the turbo inlet only


HTH

Scott Justusson
94 FZJ80 Supercharged and Sumotoy PCV mod

 

[waterush]

Can the pvc mod be done on 96 and up 80's?Also can the DS pvc valve be t"d to the old and the new ports?

 

[SUMOTOY]

Can the pvc mod be done on 96 and up 80's?Also can the DS pvc valve be t"d to the old and the new ports?

Not sure why you would, but I guess you could. Are you speaking to a stock truck or a SC/Turbo truck? There is no need to do the mod in post 1 to a stock truck. This mod is only necessary if your intake manifold will see positive pressure, as in turbo/SC.

SJ

 

[Walking Eagle]

Technically, there is nothing wrong with how toyota set up the PCV routing on the *stock* truck, it's standard configuration. I would also venture that if CARB really looked at this SC application, they would require the routing as I did it. I really doubt they are aware that on boost, there is not pcv with the SC application. On an EPA certified production turbo or supercharged vehicle, the routing TRD did would be considered not in compliance. You must have PCV under boost on a compliant turbo or SC application. That said, I really doubt CARB has time to look at each individual secondary PCV application to make sure it's compliant. That said II, I'd bet they'd be happy to add that "proof" requirement by the applicant. I did a CARB applicaiton a few years ago, they don't miss much.

O.K. so when you did a CARB application, they don't miss much. But when they did it for Toyota's SC application, they were out to lunch and approved a system that is "not in compliance".

Perhaps part of the problem here Sumo is that not only are you talking down to other's on the forum, but you're taking shots at Toyota and CARB. You're way may be better, but it certainly does not mean that TRD did not do it properly, nor that CARB did their evaluation after smoking a dooby.

 

[SUMOTOY]

O.K. so when you did a CARB application, they don't miss much. But when they did it for Toyota's SC application, they were out to lunch and approved a system that is "not in compliance".

Perhaps part of the problem here Sumo is that not only are you talking down to other's on the forum, but you're taking shots at Toyota and CARB. You're way may be better, but it certainly does not mean that TRD did not do it properly, nor that CARB did their evaluation after smoking a dooby.

WE
Carb doesn't miss much, and they were addressing PCV monitoring requirements back in 1997, just about the time the TRD kit came out. Luckily it onlyapplies to 2002> production vehicles right now.

Section 209(a) of the Clean Air Act, as amended (``Act''), 42
U.S.C. 7543(a), addresses PCV monitoring and vacuum leaks of that system to all 2002> production vehicles. Edit: The current OBDII code for PCV is P1480, old MIL 37. (P=powertrain, 1-air and fuel, 4 - aux emission equipment, 80 - PCV circuit or solenoid). Many new cars have this, even though EPA doesn't really have a clearn and enforced mandate on it (as far as I know), Chrysler and Jeep specifically list it in their engine diagnostic trouble codes (DTC's)

As a shop guy, I'm very familiar with EPA rules, regulations, and waivers, I fill them out all the time here in Illinois. I have also applied for CARB certification on a mod several years ago, and I have no doubt CARB doesn't miss much

Here, they missed the aftermarket turbo and SC applications of PCV. As of 2002, it won't be missed, since it will trigger a fault code. And remember, EPA lists in the EOD exemption that they can pull the plug at any time after the filing.

I will never agree that CARB is out to lunch, ever. That doesn't at all mean because they didn't specifically address PCV on the TRD supercharger exemption, that scrutiny of it would otherwise put it in compliance. It wouldn't be compliant on a stock turbo/SC app 15 years ago.

Scott Justusson
94 FZJ80 with Sumotoy PCV mod

 

[SUMOTOY]

Followup Documentation To Post 1

Gents:
I popped up and read thru the CARB Executive Order D-425-7 (18 July 2000) regarding exemption of the 1FZFE TRD Supercharger Kits. As presented in post 1, I had relocated the PCV valve hose from the intake manifold to the throttle_body adaptor ("prechamber") of the Supercharger. It's my belief that under sustained boost load (hills/mtn/trailer) = sustained PCV valve closed, too much positive pressure could build up in the crankcase due to inadequate ventilation. I referred to this as the "Sumotoy PCV mod". After careful review of D-425-7, I'm convinced that TRD had already done this PCV valve hose relocation in their original application for CARB Exemption. And, quite possibly omitted the relocation of the PCV hose in the Supercharger Kit and Kit installation instructions. Which means, by definition, the TRD Kit instructed install is not CARB Compliant.

From CARB EOD-425-7
"... The supercharger and plenum chamber are located on the passenger side of the engine block. No emissions related components are modified EXCEPT FOR A PCV HOSE WHICH IS RELOCATED TO THE VACUUM PORT ON THE THROTTLE_BODY ADAPTOR AT THE BACK OF THE SUPERCHARGER."

Exactly where I relocated my PCV valve line (as pictured in post #9)....

Here's how I see it: Given 2 PCV hoses exist, and the PCV breather hose stays in the stock location on the throttle body itself (because the CARB approval dictates no change there), the "PCV hose which is relocated to a vacuum port on the Supercharger throttle_body adapter at the back of the supercharger", would be the pcv valve hose I address in Post 1.

SUMMARY: This means exactly that any 1FZFE TRD Supercharger Kit install that *does not* demonstrate that "a PCV hose has been relocated to the vacuum port on the throttle_body adaptor at the back of the supercharger" is Not in Compliance to the conditions specified in CARB Executive Order D-425-7, and therefore is *not* CARB Exempt.

Food for thought.


Scott Justusson
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
Carb D-425-7 Compliant?

 

[nicholas]

I found this thread while searching the depths of mud and I figured I'd bump this for any of the new S/C owners that might want to do this mod.

Scott, any updates on how this system has been working for you?

I read most of the thread and the theory behind it makes sense. I think I might do this if I can find a brass fitting. Sounds like they are tough to find these days. I had a buddy in high school who's father was a mechanic in the 70's and 80's and he has all sorts of brass and copper fittings in his garage. I'll give him a call to see if he could donate a few to the board. Unfortunately I have a feeling he may have converted most of them into illicit smoking devices.

 

[SUMOTOY]

I found this thread while searching the depths of mud and I figured I'd bump this for any of the new S/C owners that might want to do this mod.

Scott, any updates on how this system has been working for you?

I read most of the thread and the theory behind it makes sense. I think I might do this if I can find a brass fitting. Sounds like they are tough to find these days. I had a buddy in high school who's father was a mechanic in the 70's and 80's and he has all sorts of brass and copper fittings in his garage. I'll give him a call to see if he could donate a few to the board. Unfortunately I have a feeling he may have converted most of them into illicit smoking devices.

I've had the PCV hooked up this way for some time now. It's kinda a nerdy, boring, but correct mod to do for a SC application. The main advantage is really the ability to run long on-boost durations without concern to PCV buildup from the valve being closed on-boost.

WRT brass fittings, not sure what you speak to there, but WRT T's etc, I had good luck at Autozone and NAPA. IME, Autozone stocks many in their stores, Napa can order just about whatever you are looking for.

There appears to be no downside to this mod. I have something like 50k since SC installation.

Cheers

Scott J

 

[nicholas]

Thanks Scott,

I think I will go to the auto parts store and get some T's then. I had just read that they were hard to find and that Romer had to rig one up for his sub tank and it wasn't cheap.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Thanks Scott,

I think I will go to the auto parts store and get some T's then. I had just read that they were hard to find and that Romer had to rig one up for his sub tank and it wasn't cheap.

Since there is no on-boost pressure in the PCV line with this mod, you should be fine with using just a barb type T fitting. I used plastic because I had it, and your post was the only reminder that I'm still using the plastic T. So it appears the mod is more important than the bling, but no harm in bling applied either.

Cheers

Scott J
94 FZJ 80 Supercharged