ONSC standardized comms (2 Viewers)

[emorth]

@JohnVee invited @StaleAle and me into an ONSC thread regarding the standardization of GMRS channels/freqs.

Standardized comms

I would like to propose a suggestion for standardization of our communications. I like to be efficient and having to pick between HAM, GMRS, FRS, CB I just hate that every time we are doing something, event or trail ride you basically have to carry all four because everybody is doing there...

forum.ih8mud.com

Thoughts?

Options regarding the Motorola radios:
- Leave them alone, it ain’t broke.
- Print lots of CLCC to other radio channel configuration charts.
- Reprogram all of the CLCC radios to have the same channel format as the Midland, and other, commercial blister pack radios (which came on the market after we were using the Motorola radios). Lots of logistics to do this. Jon and I are the only ones equipped to do the Motorola radios. Chirp doesn’t work on Motorola radios.
- Other ideas???

Comments from the senior executive management? Decisions like this are why you guys get paid the big bucks.

 

[1MOA]

I say leave it alone and have them use our chirp file for their comms and we are all on the same page except the midland radio folks. Just re-label them as ONSC1 ONSC2, ect or whatever they want.

 

[Von Hayek]

I read through the ONSC thread and I am still kind of unclear about their direction. Since they are in the buying phase, is their not a radio available that can be programmed with the CLCC frequencies?

What does "Print lots of CLCC to other radio channel configuration charts" mean?

It seems like reprogramming all of our portable and mobile units is a major undertaking.

 

[iptman]

If our goal is to encourage Ham adoption (or better yet, DIScourage CB use) I think we should change our freqs to what the commercial GMRS radios are using. Make it easier for others to join the party. It will definitely be an undertaking to switch over all our radios but it's not like we don't have the capability to do that. How long does it take to reprogram the Motorolas Ed? Assuming we had 50 out there is this a 2 hour exercise or 20?

 

[Von Hayek]

If our goal is to encourage Ham adoption (or better yet, DIScourage CB use) I think we should change our freqs to what the commercial GMRS radios are using. Make it easier for others to join the party. It will definitely be an undertaking to switch over all our radios but it's not like we don't have the capability to do that. How long does it take to reprogram the Motorolas Ed? Assuming we had 50 out there is this a 2 hour exercise or 20?

I think the ONSC guys are determined to ditch the CB, they are just trying to determine what course to steer.

 

[TTViper]

Most people I’ve come across that aren’t with the club tend to have the generic Midland radios, I’ve come across enough of them that a midland radio is on my list of things to buy. If the baofengs/Motorola and midlands could be on the same configuration, that would be my vote.

 

[Svensk120]

I have a midland hard wired into my GX and it is programmed to use a CLCC freq.

I also really believe that GMRS is going to be the main comms in the near future... I think.
The biggest group is moving to it. Midland and Heep have partnered together last year and, "All Jeep® Jamboree trail communication will be through FRS/GMRS two-way radios"

I know we all make Heep jokes but they are the largest segment of the off road groups. If they truly embrace it that means more units will be sold and used making pricing lower as well as manufacturers and aftermarket support to rise. That means more options and do-dads for everyone to buy and use. That is a good thing to have more options.

HAM is still the best choice for range and all but it is the testing and the complication of using them that hold people up from getting them as well. Especially if you only use them a few times a year for events. GRMS is press and talk ... mostly. Some of the special programming to avoid the traffic is a bit more but it is able to be done with the cheat sheets.

I can't say that we need to change all of the CLCC coms to it but as newer members join and as more and more clubs mix together at events I really think that a unified com setup would be the best thing.

If you think of it when this all started with CB's... it was push talk and it was simple to use which is why it caught on. I think that GRMS is the next com to really expand upon that ease of use but with greater range, power and clarity to boot.
Sure the fee is 70$ now but it is supposed to drop to like 30$ it is good for 10 years and covers your whole "family" that isn't well defined as to what that is. I think it is worth it.
I think it is definitely worthy of a good discussion too.

 

[emorth]

@Von Hayek What does "Print lots of CLCC to other radio channel configuration charts" mean?
This is the chart that shows the CLCC and Midland (and others) compatible channels.

@iptman How long does it take to reprogram the Motorolas Ed? Assuming we had 50 out there is this a 2 hour exercise or 20?
20 minutes to get setup. About 20 - 30 seconds per radio. Getting them all together for a re-programming party is the logistical challenge.

 

[1MOA]

I would move we defer any decision on comms to either @emorth or @StaleAle since they will bear the majority of the work on the decision.

 

[NearJetties]

Silly question for my personal benefit—trying to figure out if I have a dog in the fight. Is a baofeng or standard HAM radio with ‘the mod’ cross compatible with the Motorolas and Midlands?

 

[Jakes40]

That’s what the club did back when the club bought the Motorola radios. We chose to use GMRS. I see the benefits of both. But I feel we weather the Communications storm with the GMRS.

 

[matzell]

I have no dog in the fight but why the hate for CB? On a trail ride you should be able to see the rig in front and behind you. CB should work fine. Are you looking to get a greater range? No license needed, has worked for years. Maybe I am just old?

 

[1MOA]

I like the CB for the conversations going down the road.
Anyone who has ever listed to comments about seat covers and where to get a 5th wheel greased knows what I’m talking about.

 

[emorth]

@NearJetties Yes, both radios should be "cross compatible".

@matzell and @1MOA Agree. CB can be informative on the interstate and functional on the trail. Overall, it is still the lowest common denominator. If I were going out in the boonies I would have one just because other off-roaders in the area might have one in case I needed to radio for help.

From a techno-nerd-geek perspective, there are some benefits to going with GMRS:
- CB uses AM modulation, GMRS uses FM. AM is very susceptible to interference from electromagnetic noise, like from an ignition system, electric motors (wipers, blowers, etc.), FM is not as susceptible.
- The FCC limits CB transmit power to 4 Watts, GMRS is 50 Watts (some freqs are 5 Watts & FRS is 0.5 Watts) The freqs the club uses are the 50W freqs. Much better range when the group gets separated on the trail or during the convoy.
- CB is 27 MHz, GMRS is 462 MHz. A unity gain antenna at 27 MHz is 108 inches long, at 462 Mhz it is about 6.3 inches long. Any CB antenna less than 108 inches has reduced performance.
- CB radios are typically mounted in the vehicle, you don't see may handheld CB radios. VHF/UHF handheld radios are abundantly available. Nice when the spotter at the top of the hill has a radio in their hand.
- CB does not have tone/digital coded squelch, you have to listen to whatever is out there. GMRS radios have tone/digital squelch so you only have to listen to other radios with the same squelch code when multiple groups are sharing the same channel.

CB benefits:
- 40 channels.
- No license required (back in the 70s you had to have a license) I have heard rumors that the FCC is thinking about dropping the GMRS license requirement because of its popularity. FCC Enforcement is obviously minimal. The fast food joint near me has been using GMRS channel 1 for years. When I disable the PL/CTCSS/tone squelch on my radio I can hear that Fred wants extra cheese on his burger. The use of GMRS freqs for commercial applications is illegal!

So if you are ever on Jeopardy, and the answer is, "The only commercial two-way radio infrastructure that still uses AM modulation".
The response is, "What is the air traffic control radio communication system?".

 

[emorth]

Sorry for the delay in responding, the real world keeps getting in my way.

Thoughts:
Motorola radios - too much effort to reprogram all of them.
GMRS "blister pack" radios - channels/frequencies are fixed, the only thing the user can select is simplex or repeater (RP) operation and the squelch codes.
Baeofeng like radios - fully programmable (some of them).

So, here is a suggestion:
Motorola radios: print a small version of this chart, remove the battery from the radio and paste the chart to the radio. This way you have an accessible cross reference between the CLCC channels and the GMRS channels. If you are really cool, laminate the chart.

GMRS radios: not much you can do, maybe take a picture of the chart and keep it in your phone.

Baeofeng radios: Since these radios have a bunch of available channels, program both the CLCC channels and the GMRS channels (yes, somewhat redundant) into the radio so you can select either a GMRS channel or a CLCC channel. Set the radio's display to show the channel name rather than the frequency. This way you can select CLCC channel 5 or GMRS channel 23 depending upon which group you are with, even though they are the same frequency. This way you don't need the chart to see that 5 & 23 are the same freq. Thanks to @SeanLX from ONSC for the suggestion.
Something like this:

You could also program all of the GMRS/FRS freqs so you have all of them. General Mobile Radio Service - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Mobile_Radio_Service (Note: some of the channels are narrow band and/or low transmit power)

If this is the way to go I will create a CHIRP file.

Comments, criticisms, obscene remarks and/or rude gestures???

 

[emorth]

One more thought for the Motorola folks. If the coded squelch is preventing you from receiving someone's transmission, you can disable the receiver's coded squelch and switch to standard carrier squelch by pushing the middle button above the Push To Talk button. More info here CLCC RADIO 101 – More than you ever wanted to know about CLCC’s radios – Capital Land Cruiser Club - https://capitallandcruiserclub.com/tech-library/radio/

 

[Von Hayek]

I like it. So looking at the chart, our Motorola radios can be me made to work with GMRS radios on GMRS channels 15-22? Seems like problem that isn't a problem.

And let the Baoefeng owners program frequencies for both.

 

[emorth]

I like it. So looking at the chart, our Motorola radios can be me made to work with GMRS radios on GMRS channels 15-22? Seems like problem that isn't a problem.

And let the Baoefeng owners program frequencies for both.

Correct. Not a technical problem. Just operational confusion.
Kinda like 1800 hours and 6:00 PM.

 

[SFROMAN]

Hello guys,
Great conversation.
I started the ONSC comms thread. First thing I will say is I don’t know much about GMRS, ham, or CBs and that is why I started that thread.
I have been with the club and wheeling for about 15 years. And seems like forever that every time you go to an event everybody is doing their own thing when it comes to comms. Which is fine.
Obviously your club decided early on that GMRS was the way to go and that is awesome.
Also, i hate that when we do get a new club member or a new person into wheeling , or to attend a TLCA event or club event we can’t give them a straight answer as to what type of comms equipment they should purchase.
Get all 4 types is not the right answer and I feel that we keep kicking the can by not just adopting what we called a PACE plan at my old job.
Primary
Alternate
Contingency
Emergency

Again, for the most part making sure you have comms on the trail is mostly to keep folks informed and enhance the experience for everyone involved and that’s fine.
I just like efficiency in effort and I feel that adopting this PACE plan across TLCA events it would make things so much easier.

Primary: MGRS (supplemented by HAM)
ALTERNATE: HAM
Contingency: FRS RADIOS
EMERGENCY: cell phone.

 

[SFROMAN]

To add
Once I step up as ONSC President I will be pushing for ONSC to standardize all our event comms with midland radios and try to make it ass easy as possible for everyone to have comms while on the trail ( not just the trail leader and tail gunner)

Of course HAM is the gold standard but most people are just not going to take the time to take the test.

I got both my HAM and my GMRS licenses but I did that because it meets my travel requirements.

I will be attending a few other TLCA events throughout the country and I am hoping I can convince all the folks that host those events to accept my proposal that way we can all work towards being on the same page.