O R I O N

[rusty_tlc]

So what would cause the Orions to pop out when they are at operating temperature but not when they are cold?

Operation Temperature = Drive for a few miles in 4x4 in a mild climate.

Coefficient of thermal expansion.

 

[Poser]

maybe the case warps slightly.

I could see a shift fork perhaps, but not the whole cast iron case...

 

[orangefj45]

So what would cause the Orions to pop out when they are at operating temperature but not when they are cold?

Operation Temperature = Drive for a few miles in 4x4 in a mild climate.

who's is popping out of gear once it warms up?

maybe the case warps slightly.

i HIGHLY doubt that.

georg

 

[rusty_tlc]

maybe the case warps slightly.

I could see a shift fork perhaps, but not the whole cast iron case...

i HIGHLY doubt that.

georg

Maybe they took a drive on the surface of Mercury or something.

 

[65swb45]

So what would cause the Orions to pop out when they are at operating temperature but not when they are cold?

Operation Temperature = Drive for a few miles in 4x4 in a mild climate.

Without seeing the case in question, I would have to wonder if it was the gear oil itself, taking up some kind of clearance between the output gears and the output shaft, and that clearance increasing, along with a commensurate increase in gear movement, as the gear oil warms and thins.

 

[65swb45]

the shift forks and rails are one of the variables when it comes to these cases. whenever i build one, i try the fork on the rail without any o-rings on the rail but the case set-screw tightened down to see where the detents and fork end up as far as the high,neutral and low is concerned. i've seen a few where the casting of the fork actually hit the case on the shift rail end. actually i've seen a few of them, some hit in low, some in high gear. i've also seen a few forks where the ends were warped during the heat treating process. if the high-low collar cannot wiggel a little from side to side, then there's excessive fork warpage.
to avoid these issues, i have a few forks and rails on hand. i've even welded up the hole in the shiftrail ( where the set screw locates it in the case ) and then ground a new hole in the rail to get the fork to end up in the proper location.

..

Looking back thru this thread, I see that you mentioned the fork possibility when the problem arose last year. I did not want to comment on the fork before speaking with AA about it, and confirming my observations.

1. The fork supplied with my case was indeed NOT heat treated. The new fork clearly is. So that should help....ME! What about the others who received units from the same time frame?

2. Because the shift fork was not heat treated, it acted as the fusible link, and apparantly ALL the wear was on the fork; the sleeve still looks like new, and holds to factory tolerances with the new fork. Whew!

3. Upon the initial test fit of the new fork, I observed as you note, that the forward edge of the fork was butted against the front end of the opening in the housing, raising the question of a bias on the detent. Not having EXTRA forks to play with, and wanting to address this in a way that would be helpful to all, I thought it would be appropriate to shave approximately 1/16th inch off of the side of the fork, which I did.

4. Having now created clearance between the fork and the side of the housing, I was able to determine that the fork's position in hi gear [the one that failed me] was now centered on the detent...or was it?

5. Here's where it gets interesting. After determining that the fork was no longer being 'influenced' by the housing, I turned my attention to the shift collar. I was surprised to find that even with the inboarded detents on the AA shift rail, the hi range detent still had the collar pushed so hard onto the hi speed gear that the collar was pushed up hard against the shift fork!

6. After having had a suggestion from AA about backspacing the shift rail on the case [yes, my era of case still uses the locktab, NOT the set screw] I installed a 1/16th flatwasher behind the locktab to index the rail back in the case.

7. This newly indexed position completely alleviated the side pressure on the shift collar in hi gear. Unfortunately, it also pushed the collar too close to the lo range gear when in lo. Not as bad as the hi range bias, but definitely not in a 'sweet' spot either.

8. As fate would have it, because I've disassembled and rebuilt over a hundred t-cases over the years, in my boxes of stuff I have some of the old Toyota hardware that includes the thin wave washers Toyota used to use before going to the split washers. And wouldn't you know it, when I replaced the flat washer with the wave washer, I achieved a 'neutral' collar position in both hi and lo!

Of course, it would require the extra work Georg has suggested to deal with this on the set screw version. So in a way I'm thankful for having the locktab version. And I've got another hunch about that particular aspect of my case that I will keep to myself for now.

I will start the re-assembly tomorrow.

Thanks to Matthew at AA for letting me bend his ear with my ideas.

 

[calico kid]

I could see a shift fork perhaps, but not the whole cast iron case...

Ya I helped install one and it is HEAVY DUTY For sure.

I retract my theory.

 

[1911]

My Orion was getting harder and harder to shift out of low-range; upon inspection, the arm for the H-N-L shift-shaft on top of the case looked like this:

The wobbly stock shifter linkage was not pulling straight on the shift arm. Steve (Poser) recommended a twin-stick installation, so I bought one from Georg and installed it. I was very happy with the AA kit; I did not need to do any bending or welding at all, and with a little trial and error on the length of the rod that connects the H-N-L shifter I didn't even need to alter the stock hole in the tranny access plate on the floor of the cab. I did end up fabricating a new rod as the one that AA supplied was about an inch less than optimal - it would have worked, but not with enough thread engagement on both ends as I would have liked.

I'm very happy with the outcome, both sticks shift in all positions much easier than with the stock lever, and the feel is very positive - you can feel the detentes much better and there is no longer any doubt if you are completely shifted or not. I highly recommend this modification for any Orion installation.

 

[65swb45]

WOW!

My arm could never bend that much. It's only about a quarter inch below the floor brace!;p

Your stick setup turned out sweet.

Got Ruftoys back on the road this evening. Everything feels like it's back to normal.Time to plan a trip!

 

[orangefj45]

glad you guys got your problems resolved. sometimes it takes a community effort to make stuff work. i'm just stoked that we have options like the orion at our disposal.......

and i have another one sitting on the bench, waiting for me to build it for a fellow mudder.

happy holidays all.


georg

 

[orangefj45]

installed #521 last week, went into a late 60s cruiser with 3-on-the-tree and factory PTO. the pto required some mods, was'nt a bolt-in. not for the faint of heart.

digi was broken and i just got the replacement but i have some iphone pics if needed.

finished #530 today, will get boxed up and shipped out tomorrow. going to socal into a 40 with a 4spd in front of it.

georg @ valley hybrids

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

That thing is sooooo purdy....I want one

 

[Jerzfj40]

installed #521 last week, went into a late 60s cruiser with 3-on-the-tree and factory PTO. the pto required some mods, was'nt a bolt-in. not for the faint of heart.

digi was broken and i just got the replacement but i have some iphone pics if needed.

finished #530 today, will get boxed up and shipped out tomorrow. going to socal into a 40 with a 4spd in front of it.

georg @ valley hybrids

This must be mine. It does look Purrrrrdy! Cant wait to install. Thanks again Georg, You da MAN!

 

[orangefj45]

This must be mine. It does look Purrrrrdy! Cant wait to install. Thanks again Georg, You da MAN!

thanks jerry, i appreciate it. yup, that's your case and it's scheduled to arrive at your end tomorrow morning according to UPS.

georg @ valley hybrids

 

[landcrusher909]

This must be mine. It does look Purrrrrdy! Cant wait to install. Thanks again Georg, You da MAN!

Man thats Beautiful Jerry give me a call when you get it.

 

[Jerzfj40]

thanks jerry, i appreciate it. yup, that's your case and it's scheduled to arrive at your end tomorrow morning according to UPS.

georg @ valley hybrids

Got it today Georg! WOW it's even purrrrdyer in person. After i deal with the sloppy bearing in the input shaft on my tranny, i'll get this thing back in.
thanks again for the great service!
Jerry

 

[orangefj45]

Got it today Georg! WOW it's even purrrrdyer in person. After i deal with the sloppy bearing in the input shaft on my tranny, i'll get this thing back in.
thanks again for the great service!
Jerry

thanks jerry, glad you're happy with it!

hth

georg @ valley hybrids

 

[65swb45]

#524 is done and ready to be picked up. Time to start on #528. Both paired up with H41s.

 

[orangefj45]

#538 done and heading off to it's new home on the east coast with another fellow mudder.

put your 3D glasses on!

georg @ valley hybrids

 

[peesalot]

Hey Georg, what kind of clearance are you seeing on the high speed gear to output shaft ? Not the stepped thrust washer stuff but the clearance between the bushing in gear and the shaft ? Mine was .003 and it was able to ocilate slightly so we put a new bushing in which got us .001 back and almost no ocilation potenial. I checked the old bushing and it was worn in an hourglass type pattern which alowwed the ocilation which it seems was the only problem we could find in addition to a slightly worn shift fork and the need for a .010 step washer, it is good to go now.