Next Generation Slee or ARB Front bumper?

[firetruck41]

I do not disagree with your position Ben, I was simply clairifying Scott's information.


Let me put it this way:

Let's assume you are "at fault" and your vehicle is equipped in a manner that is not US DOT approved and your vehicle is "tougher" than it is supposed to be.
Your "reinforced vehicle" could create additional liabilities and any resulting deaths, damages or injuries could be deemed your responsibility in addition to your "normal liability".

I am being a Devil's advocate here simply to make a point. Either you or your loved ones die as opposed to any other involved parties. As long as it's not your fault you have a clear concience.

I clearly see where the your devil's advocate is coming from, and I throw mine back at ya! Even a TJM bumper will probably garner as much attention as any other aftermarket bumper in case of accident. Any mod could be considered dangerous, ie. 285/75/16 tires or 2.5 inch lift, I'm just more concerned with my family, than yours, so to speak.
I'll bet your dog is glad you got bigger tires, so it didn't cause as much damage when you ran over it, but probably pissed about all that armor, hope he doesn't sue...

 

[Nay]

Tube is the only way to get all around strength/protection without the major weight compromise.

 

[cruiserdan]

I'll bet your dog is glad you got bigger tires, so it didn't cause as much damage when you ran over it, but probably pissed about all that armor, hope he doesn't sue...

He's dead now so I am off the hook.

In his case the big tires with the open tread blocks probably saved him.

 

[alaskacruiser]

I understand, but I would rather have my family/friend survive a near fatal accident (like scottm's), and possibly lose all my money in a lawsuit. If it is your fault, they will sue you anyway regardless of your bumper.

I don't see this as a "one or the other" type of argument- I don't think it's either you have an ARB and survive an accident, or you don't have an ARB and you do not. You are pretty darn safe in a stock Cruiser. Most people are adding ARBs to protect their Cruiser from damage in an accident, with the additional bonus possibly being occupant protection. An accident like Scott's is pretty atypical, so I wouldn't add an ARB based on that alone.

In many cases, I think the ARB will likely cause additional damage to the other vehicle and its occupants vs. if you did not have an ARB, and you will likely come out OK in a Cruiser ARB or no ARB.

 

[Grench]

Wow. Thank you all for the excellent responses!

For those that asked, my M12K isn't for sale.

In my wife's accident yesterday she was stopped at a light behind the mini van. Apparently she was too close. Her foot slipped off the brake and they bumped before her foot could get back on the brake. So, as far as I can tell it was a 2-4mph bump. Yep. Mrs. G's fault. Not her first and I hate to say it, probably not the last. I hope its the last, but realistic expectations and history tell me otherwise.

I'm unimpressed with the stock bumper's performance in even this lightest of accidents. The fact is, the factory bumper is a sacrificial chunk of sheetmetal that folds up under the slightest of impacts.

Her truck is a soccer mom mobile and will be for a long time to come. The ARB and Slee (either one) are both overkill for it. Tonight I'm leaning towards the TJM. Last night I was leaning towards the ARB with it's documented crash performance. She loves the looks of the updated Slee. I do too and I'm confident in the builder's abilities.

Weight is a concern on her truck for now. It is full stock suspension. I plan to do an OME 'stock height' = 1" or so lift and 255/80R16 Goodyear ATs in about a year or so when the Micheline's that are on it need to be changed. Thats it though. There are no other planned exterior mods for it. No winch, etc... I had scoffed at the whole ARB non-winch bar discussions earlier. Now I see a potential use for one. How much do they weigh?

For all of us with built up trucks... With the trucks we drive tilting the scale at 6,000+ lbs we should all drive like grandmas on the road. I pitty anyone that runs into or worse yet gets hit by my armored grey truck with a standard car. The results wouldn't be pretty.

The ideal bumper for my wife's truck... Does anyone make a big orange bag of closed cell foam that straps to the front? Front facing spring mounted box beam?

So far the options are still Slee (x2), ARB and TJM. I surfed & searched and haven't found any other bolt on alternatives. Are there any more?

 

[firetruck41]

I don't see this as a "one or the other" type of argument- I don't think it's either you have an ARB and survive an accident, or you don't have an ARB and you do not. You are pretty darn safe in a stock Cruiser. Most people are adding ARBs to protect their Cruiser from damage in an accident, with the additional bonus possibly being occupant protection. An accident like Scott's is pretty atypical, so I wouldn't add an ARB based on that alone.

In many cases, I think the ARB will likely cause additional damage to the other vehicle and its occupants vs. if you did not have an ARB, and you will likely come out OK in a Cruiser ARB or no ARB.

I understand that, however, I would still rather have more protection than less (up to a point), which is why I recommend the ARB, I really don't care how much damage an ARB causes vs. another aftermarket (or OEM) bumper, as my insurance will take a hit either way, if it is my fault. If my Cruiser escapes a minor accident unscathed, with the ARB and would have had $1500 in damage with a lesser bumper, I'm comfortable with that. If the other vehicle requires more repair and mine is still undamaged, I am fine with that as well.

If it comes to one of those 1:1,000,000 accidents like ScottM's I would be happy with my decision as well. When I have approval from the CFO and the money as well, I am leaning towards the ARB, because I believe it will protect my LX and my occupants better than a OEM bumper or several other aftermarket bumpers, it sounds like Grench has similar values in mind when looking for a bumper, hence my recommendation.

 

[rgsiii]

I live in an area with a large deer population. The ARB is the best for me.

 

[Grench]

ECB are light but still very strong. No good for rocks IMO.

Used ones come up now and again. This one is gone:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=814184&postcount=3

But, I like the look of the older style better:
1990 HDJ81 with ECB

Hey, that IS another alternative. Are those aluminum? Were they ever sold in the US market?

 

[cruiserdan]

Grench,

For what it's worth, it's a safe bet that the vehilce she "tapped" would have been damaged well past the "wave and goodbye stage" had the Cruiser had an ARB, a Slee A TJM, et-al.

Just an observation, I have a Slee on mine and I hope that I do not hit anyone on my nickle. I am not about to remove it but I do consider it a possible liabilily to me if I am at fault.

 

[Grench]

Grench,

For what it's worth, it's a safe bet that the vehilce she "tapped" would have been damaged well past the "wave and goodbye stage" had the Cruiser had an ARB, a Slee A TJM, et-al.

Just an observation, I have a Slee on mine and I hope that I do not hit anyone on my nickle. I am not about to remove it but I do consider it a possible liabilily to me if I am at fault.

I agree with the added liability going non-stock. I don't even know if I want to upgrade from the stock one. If I do, it will make you rich with all the replacements over the next 10 years. This gives way to another side to this whole discussion though that you are unequaled in ability to weigh in on.

The bumper sheet metal, PS mounting brackets, DS mounting brackets are bent up. The vents & plastic end caps are OK. I argue that this is the mildest accident possible that could result in repairs. How much would it cost to get the OEM parts? If I count on replacing the front bumper every 2-4 years...

I'd go through the list, but if it ever came back to my wife I'd have a long explanation to do. If any of you ever meet her, please don't mention this thread. She has a consistant history of minor to moderate damage every 2 years or so. She's had this truck < 6 months.

 

[cruiserdan]

New OEM bumper bits can add up to and often exceed an ARB, Slee, TJM.
The 91-94 bumpers are more expensive than the 95-97.

 

[Grench]

New OEM bumper bits can add up to and often exceed an ARB, Slee, TJM.
The 91-94 bumpers are more expensive than the 95-97.

That was my assumption. Her Red and my Grey are both '96s. That was by my design. Fewer things to learn and fewer spares to shelf.

 

[alaskacruiser]

I understand that, however, I would still rather have more protection than less (up to a point), which is why I recommend the ARB, I really don't care how much damage an ARB causes vs. another aftermarket (or OEM) bumper, as my insurance will take a hit either way, if it is my fault.

Your statement seems to address the damage an ARB may cause to another vehicle in an accident, but not the greater likelihood of injuries to the other vehicle's occupants. Fact of the matter is most people are adding this bumper mainly to protect their Cruiser from damage, and many do not consider the likelihood of increased injuries to another vehicle's passengers in an accident. I think its pretty safe to say a stock 80 and its occupants are very safe without an ARB (not including those who need it for deer) compared to most other vehicles on the road.

 

[wussyPup]

Hey, that IS another alternative. Are those aluminum? Were they ever sold in the US market?

Aluminum alloy. SOR used to list them for the 80s; still have them for the 60s and 100s.

-Steve

 

[firetruck41]

Your statement seems to address the damage an ARB may cause to another vehicle in an accident, but not the greater likelihood of injuries to the other vehicle's occupants. Fact of the matter is most people are adding this bumper mainly to protect their Cruiser from damage, and many do not consider the likelihood of increased injuries to another vehicle's passengers in an accident. I think its pretty safe to say a stock 80 and its occupants are very safe without an ARB (not including those who need it for deer) compared to most other vehicles on the road.

If you read my previous posts, you will find I am completely content to cause injury to other vehicle's occupants, if it keeps mine safe.
In a minor accident, the damage to the other vehicle my be higher, but probably not much difference to the passengers. In a major accident, I am happy to have me and my family have a better chance for survival.

So to recap:
1. Any change to your vehicle from OEM, could be dangerous or considered dangerous

2. I believe the ARB will protect me and my family better than OEM or some other aftermarket bumpers

3. I believe the ARB will protect my vehicle better than OEM or some other aftermarket bumpers

4. I believe other vehicle occupants will not be significantly affected in a minor accident

5. In case of major accident I will happily exchange a strangers death for my own or my families life, though I believe this is not extremely probable.

6. I believe, from the original post that Grench has similar concerns, so I recommended a ARB bullbar, specifically for his situation.

7. If you wish to recommend something different please feel free, however any attempts to change my recommendation will probably be futile.

 

[alaskacruiser]

5. In case of major accident I will happily exchange a strangers death for my own or my families life, though I believe this is not extremely probable.

firetruck- I'm not trying to get you to change your recommendation (why would that matter to me anyway?), I'm just saying that I think this "exchange a strangers death for my own" / "one or the other" mindset is not very realistic. It is a difficult balance for those who consider the safety of others in an accident as an important factor in their purchase decision, so I'm pointing this out for Grench's benefit since he seems to be considering this aspect. Being in a Cruiser means you are safer than just about everyone out there in a frontal impact. An ARB is probably not going to save your life vs. a stock bumper in a major accident (though it will better protect your vehicle in mild to moderate accidents), but it does have a higher likelihood of injuring those in other vehicles in such an accident. I understand you are okay with this (so am I since I have an ARB, too, although I have it mainly for protection against moose collisions on my frequent trips home).

 

[Rustydog]

look at the design

Just adding my .02. I have been in the collision repair industry for almost 20 years. Tremendous changes have taken place in vehicle design that improves all our safety in an accident. There are not as many instances where the design of a vehicle is changed to protect the vehile it is impacting. Honda with the design of its wipers and others with mirrors, where pedistrian impact is a consideration. The changes are in energy management at time of impact. This effects both vehicles involved and the occupants.

Now look at the 80 front bumper. There is basically no energy management designed into the bumper at all. Mounts to the frame horns and the frame is not set up with crumple zones to absorb the impact. Having seen many in collisions, (I am not an engineer), I feel that an ARB is going to do more to equalize the impact area and spread it out over a larger surface in a collision. A factory face bar will deform immediatly and creats a rectangular speare that is the shape if the frame rail.

It is very common for the frame rail to puncture through the rail and begin its process of being a 7000LB hole punch. With an ARB the rail ends are capped, basically creating a new crossmember, that then is faced with a realitivly broad surface area. The energy created by the impact is not changed, weight is weight, it just is spread over a larger area because the ARB will not fail in the same fashion as a factory face bar. The small areas that protrude such as teh fairlead and tie down are no where near what protrudes on a factory bumper when it fails.

Remember in a collision if all things are equal, HE WHO WEIGHS THE MOST WINS.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Remember in a collision if all things are equal, HE WHO WEIGHS THE MOST WINS.

There's the absolute best reason to add the ARB with a winch!

Good points all around rustyd. My father was an expert witness in insurance claims for over 20years (as an engineer, crash reconstruction). I was raised listening to the stories and visiting measuring some of the carnage. Very sobering. And it certainly adds paradigm shift to an 'immortal' teenager. My dad also bought us all full size wagons when we were learning to drive, summing *exactly* Rusty's comment above verbatum, as former Dean of the Engineering School at Yale (good company Rusty).

Grench, I bought my truck from a guy that had a wife just like yours. The front bumper was mangled, the flares are all scraped, the front lower turn signal beam is bent, even the condenser has a bow. His exact comment was that he feared the other guy. Frequency was about every 4-6mo. I still have the estimate he got to bring the truck up to showroom just before I bought it, 6500USD (bumper and all parts incl)

I don't for a minute believe that a 1/4 in plate bumper will necessarily 'help' in a frontal impact. Rusty's point of 2 rods vs the stock bumper are valid, and are an issue with SUV safety in general. However, I would want the bumper to deform in an impact myself, and not sure I care what my TJM takes out on 'my' truck as it does that. FT, a bumper that doesn't deform still has the same energy. So either the other party takes it, or your party does. So I believe your premise is flawed from both sides of the bumper. This goes back to the days (when dad was at GM, as senior safety engineer) when the early 70's frame pickups would survive crashes with repairable damage, but the energy impact took out the driver.

I'm sure this thread will get a lot of views helping several hardcore wheelers to justify their toys. I see a lot of compromises to full battle regalia on a street 80. No brake upgrades, a crappy COG, and unsportsman like conduct on the road, make me think that this move is just too over the top. IMO.

Cdan's points are valid too. Part of AUS/NZ bull bar regulations, is to set a standard for addressing exactly that pesky liability issue. And the Bull Bar manufacturers are welcoming them. Why? Because they know too, one fatality attributed, lawyers find the money. Until we get some standards in the USA, expect this to be an assumed risk.

Back to post 1, I can't think of a better excuse to have TJM build one of those awesome TJM-17 in aluminum for Mrs G!

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[firetruck41]

There's the absolute best reason to add the ARB with a winch!

Good points all around rustyd. My father was an expert witness in insurance claims for over 20years (as an engineer, crash reconstruction). I was raised listening to the stories and visiting measuring some of the carnage. Very sobering. And it certainly adds paradigm shift to an 'immortal' teenager. My dad also bought us all full size wagons when we were learning to drive, summing *exactly* Rusty's comment above verbatum, as former Dean of the Engineering School at Yale (good company Rusty).

Grench, I bought my truck from a guy that had a wife just like yours. The front bumper was mangled, the flares are all scraped, the front lower turn signal beam is bent, even the condenser has a bow. His exact comment was that he feared the other guy. Frequency was about every 4-6mo. I still have the estimate he got to bring the truck up to showroom just before I bought it, 6500USD (bumper and all parts incl)

I don't for a minute believe that a 1/4 in plate bumper will necessarily 'help' in a frontal impact. Rusty's point of 2 rods vs the stock bumper are valid, and are an issue with SUV safety in general. However, I would want the bumper to deform in an impact myself, and not sure I care what my TJM takes out on 'my' truck as it does that. FT, a bumper that doesn't deform still has the same energy. So either the other party takes it, or your party does. So I believe your premise is flawed from both sides of the bumper. This goes back to the days (when dad was at GM, as senior safety engineer) when the early 70's frame pickups would survive crashes with repairable damage, but the energy impact took out the driver.

I'm sure this thread will get a lot of views helping several hardcore wheelers to justify their toys. I see a lot of compromises to full battle regalia on a street 80. No brake upgrades, a crappy COG, and unsportsman like conduct on the road, make me think that this move is just too over the top. IMO.

Cdan's points are valid too. Part of AUS/NZ bull bar regulations, is to set a standard for addressing exactly that pesky liability issue. And the Bull Bar manufacturers are welcoming them. Why? Because they know too, one fatality attributed, lawyers find the money. Until we get some standards in the USA, expect this to be an assumed risk.

Back to post 1, I can't think of a better excuse to have TJM build one of those awesome TJM-17 in aluminum for Mrs G!

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

I wasn't going to respond, until I saw you directing your reply to me.

Please explain to me how my premise is flawed, I have already stated that I am more than willing to let the other party accept the energy if it keeps me and mine safe. I haven't responded to an accident yet, where the passenger compartment is completely intact and the occupants seriously injured, whether it's a big old truck or new fangled car.

I am not a hardcore wheeler by any means, most would say I am not a "wheeler" at all. I don't have an ARB, and have no reason to justify a toy I don't even have, to feel good about myself. Please accept the fact, that other people can have opinions that differ from yours, with no "less noble" intent than your own. As I stated, I recommended the ARB to Grench based on his initial post and what I believe to be a suitable bumper for him, as I also posted, others may feel differently.

If liability is an issue that concerns Grench, any aftermarket bumper will bear that risk. In fact, the safest course in this case, might be to sell the LC and get a Geo Metro.

 

[sleeoffroad]

Both ARB and TJM pass the AS/NZS 4876 Standards for crash tests implemented in AUS and NZ.

Are you sure the 80 series bar has this?

Also, they are not 1/4". They are 3/16" at most (actually I think they are 3mm). There is ver little difference between the metal guage on the ARB and TJM. Most of the difference is in the design of how they mount and the design of the wings and the tube work.